Episode 42: Benefits of the Carnivore Diet


In this episode, you will learn:

  • The science behind the carnivore diet and how your body adapts to the absence of plants
  • The reason cold cereal was invented – you will be shocked
  • How sustainable and ethical the carnivore diet can be
  • My own results and observations the first 2 weeks of the diet

Episode 42: Benefits of the Carnivore Diet

Katie Wrigley 0:00
Welcome back to the Pain Changer podcast. This is episode 42 and I am your host Katie Wrigley. In previous episodes, we discussed diet and other lifestyle changes that you can make to help lower your pain. There is another type of diet that was new to me anyway, that was totally overlooked. This diet has been scientifically proven to increase the health of your body, lower inflammation, lower blood sugar, increase mental acuity and reduce symptoms of chronic diseases. Today’s guest was a no brainer for me to invite to the show. He is the first person that introduced me to the benefits of this type of diet. And I would be remiss if I didn’t introduce him to you so that you can benefit from his knowledge too. And as a side note, I have actually started the carnivore diet since meeting this person and so we’re also going to discuss towards the end of the episode, what I have found is been absolutely mind blowing. So stay tuned. That is coming right up.

Announcer 0:57
Welcome to the pain changer podcast, where you will learn insider tips and tricks to help you improve your pain levels without the nearly daily trip to the doctor or heavy pain medications. When you change your mind, you will change your experience with pain. Every week, the game changer podcast will teach you new ways to tune into your body in order to change your mind. If you had to scrape yourself off the bed like your undercooked pancake on an ungreased pan this morning, you’re in the right place. Now, here’s your host Katie Wrigley.

Katie Wrigley 1:31
I have the honor of introducing another amazing guest on the show. Casey Ruff has been a certified personal trainer since 2007. He successfully ran a metabolic testing program for a large gym and oversaw 13 programs in the West region. He has multiple certifications as a personal trainer, lifestyle coach and performance enhancement specialist with his nutrition coaching certifications. He specializes in low carbohydrate lifestyles, including ketogenic and carnivore diets. He has helped 1000s of clients over 14 years learn how to achieve their best lifestyle through movement, lifestyle management and proper diet. Together with Bethany, they created Boundless Body LLC during the 2020 pandemic. He is the host of two podcast, Boundless Body radio, which is an awesome show I highly recommend it, and how to make a podcast podcast also an awesome show. He lives in South Jordan, Utah with his wife, Bethany and their two dogs, Rex and Tucker and their cat Lily and they are adorable. In his free time he loves to cycle, play hockey, and paddleboard. Welcome to the Pain Changer Podcast Casey.

Casey Ruff 2:36
Thank you so very much, Katie. It’s such an honor to be here.

Katie Wrigley 2:38
Yeah, I really enjoyed the conversations that we’ve been having and everything you’ve been teaching me about the carnivore way of life, it is really opening my mind in ways I did not expect. Because, you know, as we’re going to talk about in the show, a lot of the science behind it is really counterintuitive to what you’ve been taught.

Casey Ruff 2:58
Yeah, it’s exactly the opposite. It’s so strange and bizarre. And I want to point out that you and I have not talked about what you are going to talk about at the end of the episode, what you are, you know, the things you’ve noticed about the diet. So I don’t know what that’s going to be. And I’m really excited to hear. I think I have a few ideas based on patterns I see with some of my clients at this point. But yeah, we did not discuss how it’s going for you. So this would be really fun.

Katie Wrigley 3:25
Yeah, it will be. The only thing we discussed is that I was trying to get myself into ketosis, which isn’t as big of a deal with carnivore as it is with keto. But for some reason, I just needed to be in ketosis and I was the other day. So I’m like, okay, I can let it go now. Nice. But let’s start with the name of your company. How did you guys come up with Boundless Body? Where did that come from? What does that mean to you?

Casey Ruff 3:25
Yeah, my wife gets all the credit for that. She was the one who came up with the idea. We were unemployed during the pandemic, and the gym where we worked had closed down. They invited us back to work, but only on a 100% commission basis. It was May, early May of 2020, and we didn’t have any clients. The clients we had previously worked with had already changed their behaviors and were working out from home and trying to be outside as much as possible. And so it was tough to think about going back. We didn’t know what we wanted to do. So we just started discussing why don’t we open up our own little company? We’ve both been personal trainers for a combined 20 years at that point. And so, yeah, it was yeah, a lot of discussions outside on walks and trying to figure out if this is something that we could do, and she came up with the idea for the business, Boundless Body, and I loved it immediately. One of our good friends makes logos and he had a logo made within like 10 minute and I fell in love with it. And I’m telling you like it’s cool to see like your logo and your font and like the stuff that you made out of like nothing but the first day that I got this sticker, it was like something, it was this, like something to actually hold in my hand, it was just a stupid sticker. But it was tangible. It was like, wow, this thing is real. So yeah, to us being boundless means you’re not, you’re not bound up, you’re not restricted in any way from the things that you want to do. And we, based on the advice that we’ve been given about so many different things in health, and fitness and nutrition, we bind ourselves up and and we can reverse that and get out of that. But it takes basically unfollowing, and unlearning all the stuff that we’re told to be able to create that freedom to then be able to have an amazing life. And so I think of, you know, my clients who they can go out on walks, they can go ride their bikes, they can go on hikes, they don’t, they’re not that hungry, they don’t need to eat a lot, like they just always feel good. And there’s no real limitation on what they can do and when they can do it. And so yeah, that was kind of our idea. And again, it was Bethany’s idea, and I loved it immediately.

Katie Wrigley 5:52
It’s a great idea. And I love that that theory of boundless body, you know, freedom is one of the things that I give my clients, so that’s what I’m hearing in there is that they have the freedom, they’re there, they’re not bounded by pain, they’re not bounded by stress. They’re not bounded by digestive issues, because the body’s actually functioning the way that it’s supposed to. That’s just awesome.

Casey Ruff 6:15
Yeah, somebody’s like, you can totally relate with everything you’ve been through and gone through in your life to feel restricted. Like no wonder you also feel, you know, depressed and anxious and have mental things going on, when you feel like you can’t physically do the things that you want, or you have emotional pain that hasn’t been dealt with, you’re bound, you’re trapped by that until you can figure out a way to get out of that and become more free.

Katie Wrigley 6:38
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s, it’s not a quick process either. And you can actually, you can start to feel like your body is a prison. And because you can’t escape from the pain, it’s every moment of every day, when you’re in these high levels of pain, it’s all you can think about. And it’s it’s really all consuming until you can start to break out of that. And a lot of people are never able to for one reason or another, you know, mindset can be a lot of it. But diet can keep you locked in. If you don’t have that knowledge in there, you know, you’re gonna keep putting things in your body that you don’t like, and you don’t even realize it. You don’t even realize that it’s coming from the diet, because the doctor hasn’t told you to change your diet. The doctor has diagnosed you with something else.

Casey Ruff 7:22
Yep. Yeah. And then same thing that like if the doctor were to give you any advice they know about nutrition, it’s probably going to be wrong. Anyway. So it’s a really good point. And, and yeah, and so like when people say, like, we should give our doctors more education about nutrition, because they only get a few hours when they’re going through training. I am not a fan of that. I actually tell people like we should not do that, because they will actually probably be given the wrong information, but then absolutely know that the information that they got was the perfect thing, because the nutritional guidelines state is what the American Heart Association says it is. And so for me, I would rather have doctors not know anything about nutrition and find it because they weren’t getting their patients or themselves really great results.

Katie Wrigley 8:02
Yes, I agree. And I am kind of thinking like, oh, man, if we like, I’m thinking of the limiting nature, trying to say this carefully of traditional medicine, and how that could limit what’s possible in diet if a doctor is yeah, a separate wheelhouse. I totally agree with that. I’m like, oh, that could go really bad or really good. Probably really bad. Yeah,

Casey Ruff 8:29
You covered that really well in the episode that you did about the medical system. And again, it’s not the doctors fault. They are really good people generally, and, you know, a few bad apples. But by and large, they wanted to help people and trapped by a system that they didn’t realize they were getting into. So it’s it’s tough. It’s tough system. Our medical system is great for acute care. So if you break your arm or have a heart attack or something like that, awesome, but it’s just not that great for chronic character. We’re really struggling with this in the country and in the world.

Katie Wrigley 8:55
Oh,yeah. And people who are going into the traditional medical system with a chronic issue tend to feel like they’re gaslighted and they get gaslighted I’ve been gaslighted I was gaslighted for years. If I wasn’t as persistent and really like a bull in a china shop, I can be a force to be reckoned with. It was just like no dammit, listen to me, I hurt. And like how fucked up is that? That I’m trying to convince my doctors that I hurt.

Casey Ruff 9:18
Yeah, well, we hear that all the time. And it’s very unfortunate and it’s great that you know your pain got to a level that you were able to stand up to your doctor and a lot of people will ever get there. They listen to the advice and it’s not great advice and they suffer because of it. Yes. It’s really a shame.

Katie Wrigley 9:34
It really is. And but let’s let’s get into the diet. So ketogenic diets, I think everybody’s heard of keto. It’s a big buzzword. People are getting a lot of different benefits from it. I’ve seen people who have gotten the results directly. It’s been amazing, but the carnivore diet is new to me and I had been taught that animal products are inflammatory, but that is not at all the case from what I’ve understood from you. So can you explain a little about what exactly is the carnivore diet? And how does it work?

Casey Ruff 10:07
Yeah, that’s a great question. So the carnivore diet is what it sounds like. It is a diet that is exclusively coming from animal products. So it is a very high amount of meat. It’s a very high amount of chicken or pork, or whatever types of meat that people like. Generally speaking, red meat is the foundation for most people. Eggs are another big staple for a lot of people on the carnivore diet. Some people can do well on different products that come from animal products. So some people do okay on dairy. Some people do okay on yogurt, that’s not always the case for everybody. But the carnivore diet is the absolute exclusion of plant foods in the diet. And I do want to say that I consider a carnivore diet by the definition of a hyper carnivore which eats 75% or greater of their calories from animal products. So that’s not to say that we’re not omnivores, that’s not to say that people can’t have some plant foods in their diet, they have to be exclusively carnivores, some people do for the rest of their life, they have to because of a medical condition. And you know, if they go off of beef, salt and water, literally just that they get bipolar, or they have migraines, or they have terrible epilepsy. And so for some people, they do have to be on a strict diet, but the way I consider it is at least 75% of the calories coming from animal products. And look, it’s 2023. This is a day and age where everybody is promoting a plant based diet. The plant based movement is as strong and as powerful as it’s ever been, for many reasons. Oh, yeah. And, and if you are, if you are approaching a carnivore diet, in 2023, you’re either a total idiot, or you’re looking for something that that world did not give you. And that’s kind of why I landed onto this type of a diet. And I was working with my clients for many years now, I was told everything that we needed to eat, we already knew in the personal training world, you needed to have lots of chicken breasts and get your vegetables. The nutrition book behind me says you need six to eight servings of vegetables every single day, two to three servings of fruit every single day, lots of whole grains, balanced meals. And we gave people all of that for years and years and years. And it just it wouldn’t work. And I would say it wouldn’t work in really two parts. First of all, it wouldn’t work in a practical sense that not not very many people could even do it. Like if I told you to eat that many servings of vegetables, you might be able to pull it off for like, a few days or a week or two weeks. But with very few exceptions, I had nobody who was willing to continue down that path before they were so hungry. And you know, if feeling so, so bad and starving and craving sugar and that they would just go right back to processed foods. Yeah, that was the first thing is very few people could even do it. And second of all the people that could do it, they really weren’t seeing the results that we were telling them that they should see they weren’t getting stronger. They if they lost weight, it was weight loss. It wasn’t just that loss, you know, they were losing muscle and they were losing water. And then you were never like you always had side things to deal with like, this person can’t lose weight, and she has hashimotos. And this person has thyroid issues. And this person has gut issues and skin issues all at the same time. All these really common themes that we sit around today and say like, oh, it’s dad bod or we’re just getting old. Sucks to get older get aches and pains. You find this other world of these people who are doing the exact opposite. They’re eating no vegetables, very little plant matter. And they’re saying things like I’m as strong as I’ve ever been. My skin feels amazing. I never get a sunburn, my gut issues magically just went away where I was like, carrying around a roll of toilet paper everywhere I went, I never have to do that again. The stories that you were hearing were just absolutely insane. And I see it every single day. I mean, I was just reflecting today before this conversation in the last 24 hours, just just the last 24 hours. I did one interview and I’ve listened to a few interviews of different people. So I’ve listened to an orthopedic surgeon who got in trouble in Australia for cutting off people’s feet who are diabetic who realized that their diet was full of sugar. And so he tried to get sugar out of the diet and they attacked him and he had to fight not losing his license for years. Whenever he told people to reduce carbohydrates out of their diet just for like shoulder issues, orthopedic stuff, such a high percentage of people will call him in like a week or two and say like, Hey, take me off for the schedule. Like I don’t I don’t need that surgery that you scheduled me for. I feel great. His wife just went more strict carnivore, she was having arthritis problems in the finger. She was like it’s gone. I asked like how long did it take? She was like three days. Wow. So that was one. Another one. Two other doctors in Australia. They’re talking back and forth about how we need to get better as doctors at deprescribing and how they did deprescribing medications. If I tell most doctors that you can deprescribe heart medications like statins, you can get off of high blood pressure like insulin is a huge one. Like they would say that’s impossible, these chronic diseases are lifelong and progressive, they get worse and worse over time, these doctors are talking about, well, we were getting people off of drugs like they don’t need them anymore. Here’s good ways that we can do that. I heard a psychiatrist who was in the fields for 10 years, and she had a mental disorder herself. And she started putting people on low carbohydrate diets and people with bipolar and schizophrenia, who would like sort of kind of manage best case scenario, if they got the right medication, or now, like, they don’t have bipolar, they don’t have schizophrenia anymore. She’s writing a book about it. And anyway, that’s just like, today, and I’m thinking like, all of these amazing things, that the medical system is not fixing that all these people are fixing, like, easily, quickly, efficiently. It’s incredible. It’s absolutely amazing. So I hope that answered the question. That’s what the carnivore diet is. And that’s some of the things that it’s used for.

Katie Wrigley 15:50
Thank you. And that was actually going to ask, like, what were some of the results that you saw on clients that told you that you were on the right track? And you just answered that really well. So what’s happening beneath the surface of the skin? Like what are, what are blood tests showing when people are going and getting checkups after they’ve been on carnivore and they’re not eating vegetables? And they’re not doing all the things that we’ve been told that we need to do to stay healthy?

Casey Ruff 16:14
Yeah, great question. So I’ll preface this by saying the first time I even heard of the carnivore diet was a doctor who went on the Joe Rogan podcast, he was in his 50s. And in this interview, he revealed that he, you know, found low carbohydrate diets and got rid of his joint pain. And now he was doing nothing but eating ribeye steaks and drinking water. And as a 55 year old, he’s breaking records in the deadlift, and in indoor rowing contests and is thriving, and he’s recommending to clients, so they’re thriving, and it’s your the first time you hear it, you’re like, What in the hell is this guy talking about? This is insane. Like, any vegetables, you don’t eat any fruit that’s so dumb, it’s so stupid. So I even turned off the interview at the point where he said that he doesn’t put a lot of he doesn’t put as much emphasis on bloodwork as he used to. And his best indication that somebody is doing really well is by how well they are feeling today, as an indication that tomorrow in the next in the next day, they will continue. At the time, my company was selling lots of blood tests, I was doing lipid panels, myself and my clients. And so I thought that was that was there, that’s preposterous, and turn that off. And only recently went back to finish that episode and listen to it again, what’s happening in the blood is several different things. So I don’t know exactly where you want to jump into this. But let’s start with, let’s start with blood sugar. So at any given time, a human has, if they’re, if their metabolism is working correctly, a human has about four teaspoons of sugar circulating in the blood, which is about five pints at any given time. So you have a massive amount of sodium salt in your blood. That’s why your blood tastes salty, not sweet, but a very small amount of blood sugar that you have in your system at any given time. Any more than that, like if it’s if it goes up to like six teaspoons, you are diagnosed with diabetes. So you have type two diabetes, it’s that tight of a tolerance. So your body regulates sugar in the blood. Wow. Yeah, it’s not much a lot of people are surprised to hear that. And our storage capacity for carbohydrate is also very small. So we’ve got the sugar that’s traveling trafficking in the blood called glucose. We also have glycogen, it’s a storage form of carbohydrate. And we can really only store that in the liver and in the muscles. So for most people, most women can really only store somewhere around 1500 calories, total calories of carbohydrates at any given time. And then can only store about 2000 calories of carbohydrates at any time. And that’s best case, that’s if it’s like topped off like after a workout, that number is going to be really low. Most people know that if you go running a little too long, or biking a little too long. And you go go go go go and then all of a sudden you run out of energy, that’s simply the carbohydrate energy in your body running out. Okay, that’s storage form of glycogen that’s bonking if you will. So so what happens all of that to say is like, what happens is we when we consume carbohydrates, what happens is the carbohydrates, depending on how complex or simple they are, they absorb into the blood very, very quickly. And so if you can imagine the blood being like a freeway, it’s where things transit, that’s where things drive. And so if I drink a soda and eat a sugar cookie, that sugar is going to the absorbing even in my mouth, like absorbing into my body, it’s going to be absorbing through my digestive tract and skin getting pulled in. And it’s going to go into the blood system, like I said, where there should only be about four teaspoons of sugar circulating at a given time. So you have a spike in blood sugar, and it’s almost like you just sent tons of cars onto the freeway. Lots of cars on the freeway all at once is a bad thing. Well, there’s lots of accidents and traffic can happen and all this stuff. So we have this really cool system that when we get too much sugar in the blood, we have a hormone called insulin, and insulin is a signal that lights up on the freeway and says, whoa, all these cars, get off the road, go to your parking spots go park, we’ll we’ll call you back when we need you. And basically all the sugar in the body will go and park in all these parking spots. But the problem is the numbers that I told you about the sugar storage, that’s, that’s the, that’s the top, that’s the most that you can absolutely store. So if you exceed that number, which is very easy to do, then you have extra that you won’t have anything to do with it, it can’t be in the blood, just like cars can’t stay on the freeway. So now the body will go out and build like more parking structures. And that’s what the body does basically is convert extra carbohydrate into fat to be put into short, or into long term storage. And the problem is insulin is so good at what it does, it gets all the cars off the road that then there’s like not enough cars on the road and that some people get the crash, the blood sugar crash, I had lunch, I had a salad, maybe some chicken and some oil. My stomach felt pretty full. But 3pm I am starving. My brain isn’t working right? I feel moody. So I’m gonna go reach for a snack, you had a candy bar and a soda ban feel great. 30 minutes later, an hour later, you are crashed and you feel terrible. And then up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down is horrible for us. It makes us what is called insulin resistant, which means we need more and more insulin to keep the cars going to where they need to go. They start ignoring the signals, essentially. And then people get diagnosed with type two diabetes, even though their insulin has been rising and rising and rising for years and years and years and decades. But we’re only looking at the blood sugar, which is controlled until it’s not controlled anymore. Now that goes up. And what do we do? We give these type two diabetics insulin? What would you do if I came to you and said, Hey Katie, I’m drinking a 12 pack every single night. I can’t get a buzz. I don’t know what to do. What should I do? Would you tell me like, dude, you need to lay off the sauce? Or would you be like, oh, here’s a bottle of Jack like, if you drink this, you’ll definitely get drunk again. Like, that’s what we’re doing. So one thing that happens immediately is when we cut out carbohydrates, all carbohydrates has come from plants. Out of our diets, our blood sugar gets better, our fasting, insulin gets a lot better. And when that happens, we’re able to now get all the cars out of the parking structures. Now we’re running our body on the fat to give us a nice, even perfectly flat blood sugar curve. And people feel really good. So that would be the first thing blood sugar gets better. Cholesterol markers that are really important to get better would be HDL cholesterol, or what we call the good cholesterol. And triglycerides. Triglycerides are the liquid form of fat that float around the blood. Those also come from carbohydrates, those typically will even out of the a one to one ratio, which is considered very protective of the heart. One thing that will happen for a lot of people depending on how lean they are, is they might notice that their LDL cholesterol or what we call bad cholesterol actually rises and goes high. And we’ve done some fascinating studies that show that LDL bad cholesterol that we tell everybody is bad is actually not bad. Half of the people that have heart attacks in this country either have normal or low LDL cholesterol already, wow, they’re already doing what they need to do to control for cholesterol. Cholesterol has amazing functions in our body. And for some people who have their cholesterol go up, they celebrate it almost like they’re happy that goes up. Because we’ve shown that as people age, people age longer if they have higher LDL cholesterol, we know all the functions it has in the immune system. It’s an amazing molecule. And it’s very well misunderstood. LDL cholesterol, to blame LDL cholesterol for for heart attacks is very similar to blaming firefighters for fires. If you observed a lot of fires, you would say like wow, like, every time I see a fire, I see firefighters like these guys suck. Let’s get them out of here. You don’t realize what is the LDL cholesterol doing around there, it’s actually trying to protect it’s like a spackle inside of your your blood vessels that really like are trying to patch repair all the inflammation that the carbohydrates cause in the first place. Oh, wow. So those are some common things that we see on carnivore with bloodwork, lots of anti inflammatory markers, your inflammation markers get better. We see that, yeah, a lot of a lot of things related to the thyroid really improve. And so that’s just some of the things that we are pretty used to seeing in the carnivore world.

Katie Wrigley 24:22
That’s amazing. And so and I already have an idea of how you’re going to answer this because we had, unbeknownst to the audience, this is actually take two, I had a little technical glitch last time, Casey and I meant to do this, but it was just another opportunity to talk which was great. You know, but I’m thinking about that freeway analogy. And so for using that, like our our blood tests, even the best way to be measuring health, are there better ways, more accurate ways to figure out what’s going on? I mean, obviously you can’t climb a mountain and you aren’t going to be hitting deadlift competitions and winning them if you’re unhealthy. We just aren’t made that way. But is there a better way or a more accurate, consistent way to check underneath the covers? As someone’s doing this diet and take a look? And is this a good diet? For me? Yes or no?

Casey Ruff 25:13
Great question. It’s a tool, right? bloodwork is a great tool. It’s like having a hammer, we use it, we like to see it as somebody who’s getting bloodwork, I’d love to see what’s going on, I don’t pretend to know everything about what’s going on. But it’s a tool that can be used, we have a body fat scale that has the measures of you know, body fat, and that’s a great tool to use. We use all kinds of different assessments, and time things and you know, stool sampling, whatever whatever people have is really great and will always take more information. But but the blood work to me is like getting that snapshot of the freeway, and not necessarily knowing what time it is right? How much traffic is on the road, but is this 5am or 5pm, this is really relevant for something like we were just talking about LDL cholesterol, I can, I can very accurately get somebody’s LDL cholesterol to go way, way high, or dropped completely out. There are protocols that I could give you that would make your LDL cholesterol go down so low that your doctor would say like, yeah, your LDL is great, this is awesome. It’s all about trafficking and how it works in the body, wow, change those numbers drastically. And the bloodwork is changing all the time. And so I do put less value in it than I used to. Again, I think it’s nice to know, I think there’s certain things that are there that are helpful, but I think it’s it’s too dynamic. And so it’s such a moving target number. This is why also like if somebody’s going to check their blood for sugar, we can prick your finger, you can do that after meals or four hours after meals or when you wake up. And you know, it’s kind of painful. And it’s still just a snapshot, you can do that multiple times a day. But this is where I prefer like if somebody wants to know their blood sugar, they can get a little patch on their arm called a continuous glucose monitor. And they can update it through their phone and Bluetooth and see real time anytime what’s happening with their blood sugar. Oh, I know exactly what’s going on and what’s affecting them. They know like, Oh, if I have peaches, I actually my blood sugar is okay. But if I have watermelon for whatever reason, my blood sugar spikes or when stress at work goes up, you see all of that, but it’s in a continuous fashion. So you can draw a lot more conclusions. I think that’s a lot more helpful. But no, in general, I think I don’t place a high value in blood work or a lot of those other assessments. Frankly, I think one of the best things you can do is, you know, really invest in a piece of string. Those, spend the money, get a piece of string, measure out your height with that string. Yeah, and I will tell you that you are medically healthy if your waist circumference on that string is less than half of whatever your height is, that tells me pretty much everything I need to know about somebody’s metabolic health, which then tells me everything I know about their mental how their mental health is, it tells me everything I need to know about their blood pressure, or visceral fat, or their blood sugar, I know that all of that is controlled, they can live a long and healthy life, if that is maintained.

Katie Wrigley 28:03
That makes a lot of sense. And thank you for that. And you know, you’re, you’re the second person that I’ve had on here, that’s not the biggest advocate of blood tests, because it is that point in time. So what they had advocated for something called the Dutch test, which is really it’s more expensive. But it’s a very comprehensive panel and you you do it five times you’re peeing on a piece of paper five times, it’s a day where you’re a little dehydrated, because they really want your your pee to be really concentrated to catch it. But it tells you everything that’s going on, you’ve got all your hormones in there, you’ve got cholesterol, thyroid, the the sex hormones, like all of that laid out in there, it shows adrenal function. It shows like whether you’re metabolizing things properly or not. So it gives you like this really deep dive. And it’s not a point and you literally write down the time of day, when you did. So there is a place on there, like they have guidance in the tests, like you take it at, you know, I think you start at five o’clock at night. But there is a place to write like the exact like write the exact time you take this so that they can then correlate that to what the natural rhythms of the body are supposed to be doing at those times. So they can help figure out the overall health from there. So that was a useful test to me. Not something that I do very often because like I said, it was like $500 for the test. I mean, but you’re getting a deep dive under the covers, but you don’t have to do it very often.

Casey Ruff 29:32
Yeah, that’s great. I would have a high value in that. And I would also just say like, we need to make sure that whoever is interpreting the results really knows how to interpret the results. Yeah, because all of those things are all interacting with each other all the time. Yet we’re used to seeing it as like a one line. This is where this is this is the high value. This is the low value. So you don’t you don’t know how everything is changing everything all the time. So yeah, if you can do a test like that and find somebody who is really good and understood all those interactions, that’s fantastic.

Katie Wrigley 30:01
They actually offer that with the test is you can actually I think you can I actually was working with a practitioner who knows those and knew knew how to read it. So I didn’t have an extra charge for that. But they do actually, they offer that within the company that you can have one of their experts give you the analysis, which I thought was pretty great. That’s amazing. Yeah, that sounds like great. That’s great. Yeah, that one, that one was good. So one of my own hesitations there were there were a couple like we’ve you know, you and I’ve talked about, I have hemochromatosis. So there is an iron component in there that I had been told keywords been told, we don’t know yet what’s going on. But I have been told that I’m not really supposed to eat meat, should stay away from me. And I have been able to keep iron lower on a plant based diet. But then I started this other supplement called zeolite, which actually helps get heavy metals out of your blood. So it’s an easier way to control it. But the other part of the hang up I had had was was ethical. I was really struggling with that. So what would you say, Casey, for someone who’s having that ethical conundrum in their head, and they feel better eating plants than animals?

Casey Ruff 31:07
Yeah, I so much appreciate that. I love anybody who has that same concern. And I have to say, in the carnivore space, I have not met a single person that doesn’t also consider that very, very deeply. We have ethical experts on our show all the time to dive into this. And it’s a huge concern. Okay, so so when we’re talking about like the, you know, the animal based or carnivore versus the plant based we there’s, there’s three separate kind of buckets, and it makes it nice to separate these buckets out so that you can talk really effectively about each one and put them in the right place. So for the argument, we’ll start with the argument like for the plant based diet, one major bucket is all about nutrition, what is the best nutrition that I can have as a human, that’s one of the buckets that’s nutrition. The second bucket is planetary health. So this is what can I do that is the very best for the planet and help the planet. Now this is a relatively new argument, you know, plant based people, vegan people, we’re not talking about this 10 years ago, this is something that’s been kind of like, like, pushed into media a lot more now than it used to be. So that’s a newer one. But the third one is something that a lot of people have been thinking of what we consume. And the idea in the plant based movement it is it’s nice, it’s really great is that if I choose to eat plants, I am not causing harm to animals. And that’s nice. That’s a really great point. And anybody we ever talk to that has been a former vegetarian or vegan, told us that like it was really great to know that everything that I was doing was not causing any harm. There was no blood on my hands as far as it goes. So there’s another story I want to tell and I’m going to steal this also from Lierre. So she wrote the book, The Vegetarian Myth, she was hardcore vegetarian and vegan for like 20 years and she really destroyed her health doing it, she should have listened to the signals. And she just, it was ethical. She wanted to be vegan for ethical reasons, she could not stand the thought of anything being harmed to give her her food. So what a noble reason to do that. As part of her journey, she decided she wanted to start a garden so she planted in her garden, lettuce so that lettuce could grow in her garden. Problem is slugs love lettuce, for whatever reason, they just eat it up. Absolutely love it. So Lierre wakes up one morning comes out. All the plants that she planted are wiped out by the slugs empty. So she starts again. She tries it again. Replants all the starts, she did it like way too many times, there’s like five or six times every night, with all the slugs eating all the lettuce before she realized she had to do something. She was like, well, I can’t kill them. So her first idea was to trap them. So she collected the slugs, put them in a cup, rode them off into the forest and drop them off. Before she then exactly before she didn’t realize like wait a second, that area already had all the slugs that it could support that was his own ecosystem. These slugs are good as dead, they’re going to be food, for sure. So then she thought, well, maybe I can put something down that will stop the slugs and you can put something like diatomaceous earth on on your soil, which is like sandpaper, so so she didn’t want to do that because the little slugs would suffer. So then she thought well, I can put traps of beer near the lettuce. And just like me, I like beer a lot more than I lettuce, as slugs apparently. And so she put these traps out and wakes up in a cold sweat at two in the morning and dumps them out says I can’t do this. So her gardening project is done. She doesn’t get any food out of it. The next day she drives to the store and she buys lettuce and to her relief like oh my goodness, like finally I can eat this food and not have any deaths. And she said the idea hit her like a two by four in the head. Who are you kidding? Who do you think you’re kidding? This lettuce was grown by somebody that had to deal with slugs. Whatever way they had to deal with slugs. They killed slugs, for her to have that lettuce bought at a store slugs needed to be dealt with. And she realized at that time, that if she wanted to live, something else had to die. And one of the very last people that she talked to in her journey as she was, like, wasting away on her couch was a Native American, who Lierre told her like, I think I’m starting to learn that, like, if something if I’m gonna live, something needs to die, and this, this Native American just looked at her with, like, with like, like kindness and compassion, like, oh, sweetheart, like, Absolutely, that’s how life is, yeah, things die. It’s uncomfortable, and it sucks. And I grapple with it all the time. And we, if you want to eat, something is going to die. I don’t care what kind of food it is, you’re killing something. And you’re part of it. And so I understand and I empathize for sure. And I would just have people consider what things would die to produce this food and any food has it.

Katie Wrigley 35:55
And that’s a good point, you know, they I started to watch there, I used to do it, I used to follow them all the time. And I’ve gotten back into the habit again. But there’s this news network called The Good News Network. And so you can actually get good news going on in the new world every day. It’s goodnewsnetwork.org for anybody who’s interested. And they actually were able to see that and we’ve already know that plants have consciousness, you talk to them, they grow like you can actually get them like my mom threatens her plants and then they grow. Most people are kind to their plants. My parents plants respond to threats for whatever reason, they do. It’s just a tough yard, I guess to grow in. But they you could actually like they zoomed in on, I forget what the part of the plants called. But you could actually see the plant breathing it was breathing in the carbon look like this tiny little grain mouth that was like opening underneath the leaf. It was so cool, like, you could see it like open and close, like it was taking in the carbon dioxide out of the air. So it’s like, okay, that can breathe. But much to your point, people are a lot more comfortable killing a spinach leaf than they are Bambi. But in the thing that’s, you know, and I’ve I’ve seen actually, in Ayahuasca ceremonies, some of the torture that the main the over the agriculture ring that are not the agriculture, the farming that we’re talking about, where they’re they’re pumping and full of hormones and steroids and all kinds of crap, and they’re feeding them awful stuff that they shouldn’t be eating, and the birds never get to move, and the cows never get to move. They’ve had miserable lives, they do not have ethical deaths, like that, like that the mass, there we go. The mass farming is this stuff where you’re really like you’re killing the spirit of the world of the animals, like there’s no respect for the animals in there. That’s not what you’re talking about. And there you can go to the store, you can actually there’s a bunch of different levels of humanely raised products that you can have. So they’ve I think it’s levels one through four. You may know more about that than I do. But that’s what worked for me is to go get ethically raised meat. And I thank it too, and sometimes sometimes it says thank you, or it says you’re welcome in return, not all the time. But there was some bacon I had the other day actually. And I think the pig and I heard this happy little oh, you’re welcome, and I’m like oh, you really had a happy life, didn’t you? Like it’s the weirdest fucking thing to be in my kitchen and like hearing some spirit of a pig. And it doesn’t happen all the time, you know, but it’s every reason every once in a while. And on the flip side, like I’ve had, it was years ago, and it’s happened twice, but I had chickens that apparently did not have a good life at all. And I was anxious the entire time I was digesting it because this chicken had had such a bad death. Like I don’t know what had gone down at that farm. But I never ate chicken at that restaurant again, I’m like, I’m like afraid to eat meat at this restaurant. I don’t know where you guys are getting it. But if I and it was a really good pizza place. So I just stayed away from anything meat related. But I went there because I just I’m like I can’t go through all that it was like 16 hours of anxiety until it was fully like, it sucked.

Casey Ruff 39:13
Wow. That’s crazy. We hear that story all the time from different carnivores. I will say just a few quick comments. I love that you’re buying your meat from where you buy it from. We actually just very recently interviewed somebody who did extensive research in the agriculture, the cow agriculture, beef agricultural community, and has spent much time on grain fed and grass fed operations. So the operations that we say are this is the very best, and this is the very worst. And the message that I keep hearing from those people who look at all of it, say that whatever, whatever hell you think that is for a cow, a feedlot, it’s actually not even as close to as bad as you think it is. They’re already only spending 80% or I’m sorry, 20% of their lives on those feedlot operations anyway all the other time is on grass on ranches where they’re consuming food on land that we can’t farm. So that’s one thing. But yeah, another thing that I just wanted to say is like, like when carnivores, carnivores have decided that we’re not, we don’t have to draw the line between what is sentient and what isn’t. Everything can be sentient, we can love plants. Plants are fucking amazing. They have amazing compounds. It’s where we get medicines, where we’re getting our plant medicines. They’re fucking amazing. They’ve been here a lot longer than we have. They’re way smarter than people give them credit for. They have all kinds of different chemicals to fight back against predation, which we can discuss if you would like, yeah, but but carnivores don’t draw the distinction. We don’t say that. It’s bad to kill a cow, but it’s okay to, you know, crush an entire field of corn or soy or whatever, whatever. Like there’s no distinction we appreciate all life, where if you’re eating a vegan or plant based diet, you were drawn the line, you’re gonna have to draw the line somewhere and it’s gonna that’s the uncomfortable part there is what is what is okay for you to just freely consume whenever you want. Like, you’re that entitled that all of this growing food is just there for you. Like, you have to decide and carnivores say it. You know what, everything has a life it it has to be respected. And the story I hear from so many carnivores in my gratitude, my spirituality, for my food, is like it this, this was a life and now it’s my sustenance for me and my family. And it’s, it’s amazing that all of them say ubiquitously like, I’m so much more grateful for my food now than I ever was before. And that was certainly my experience.

Katie Wrigley 41:34
Yeah. And I felt that already, only two weeks into the carnivore diet is like it, which is we’ll go into this in a little bit more like it’s the easiest I have ever done. It’s so easy. And when you had first mentioned on my meh that sounds crazy. But yeah, I wanted actually, I would love to dive deeper into that. Totally losing my train of thought and what you just said that you talked, thank you. Yes, the toxins that are coming out from the plants. So what what does that look like when a human is eating these toxins? What are what are we talking about? And what what are we seeing that happens in people when they’re eating toxic plants that are supposed to be healthy?

Casey Ruff 42:19
Great question, great question. So, so we’ve left the kind of like ethical box and bucket now we can go to the health bucket. And this argument goes two ways. And so as as a carnivore, and as somebody that studied this a lot. My first side of the argument is to say to animal products are the healthiest and safest foods you can possibly be eating in a form that is the most bioavailable. That is the best way that our bodies are set up and have evolved to consume. We are carnivore our brains work like carnivores, our eyes are pointed forward, like hunters, we don’t have flat teeth, we’re actually don’t even have sharp teeth, we’ve got molars. So we have to do something with technology to process all of our food, whether that’s soaking or fermenting, or cooking, which is what we need to do. Our stomachs have a very, very high acidity that aligns up not only with with carnivores, but actually scavengers, so that human gut can actually do very well with with meat that has gone bad historically. And that would have helped us to revolution. We have very long, short intestines where we, where we absorb all the fats and protein that we get. And we have very short large intestines, which is a fermentation chamber for carbohydrate. We can tolerate some, but we’re not set up like different animals. So you look at a cow, a cow has four stomachs, fermentation vats, they’re taking grass cellulose and actually converting it for for consumption into fats and proteins that are then bioavailable, bio-bioavailable for animals like us. They did the work that we can’t do, we can’t ferm it. We’re not even like our closest like primate relatives, they continue to eat plants, they have huge guts, those single guts are fermentation vats, they have to ferment their food, which is why they spend 14 hours a day eating food. And we for whatever reason, in our evolution, we went down a different path, we made great sacrifices to walk on two legs, have shoulders that we’re not great at hanging as much anymore, but we’re really good at throwing, we can throw way better than any other creature out there. And we’re good at all kinds of different movements. And that helped us evolve and take over every continent on the world. And we did so by eating our species appropriate diet, which is animal products. So that’s the first argument. It’s part of what made our brains grow. It’s part of what gave us energy. It allowed us to go long periods of time without food. Humans are amazing at fasting. We are built to starve. We starve really, really well. And that’s all because of the particular diet that we chose. So the first part of that argument is to say that animal products are the food that we’ve been consuming for 1000s and 1000s of 1000s of years, and it’s safe and bioavailable and is what makes us us. The second part of argument isn’t even necessarily that you can consume plants and plants are okay, or plants are neutral. The argument that we’re making is that there there are many, many, many plants that are actively harmful and toxic. And I would submit that every plant has some level of toxicity, some is very low, and is really not a concern because that level of toxicity can build up over time and probably never really cause problems. We can detoxify things over time. But other foods that are consumable, which is a very small percentage of any plant anyway, in the plant kingdom, they have toxins and chemicals that the plant uses for its own uses. Not for you, not for me, not for the people that are eating it. It’s for its babies, plants are no different than us. They want to do the same thing. They want to repopulate the earth, they want to spread around the earth and conquer the world, just like we do. But they have different structures than we do. They don’t have physical legs, they can’t run away, they can’t fight back. So what they’ve done over millions of years a lot longer than animals have been around the Earth is they develop chemicals that can fight back against predation. It could be small insects or rodents that get harmed. It could be a buildup of a bigger animal over time, that can build up and cause a lot of problems. These can be phytates and lectins. And sulforaphane and histamine, a big one that a lot of people are talking about today is oxalate. Oxalate is a crystal that plants use, not only as a mechanical defense, so think about like, think about the feeling of like chewing spinach. Yeah, like spinach is a super high oxalate food, you know that like kind of like gritty feeling you have when you eat like a raw piece of spinach. Yeah, it kind of leaves the film. Yeah, exactly. So that’s, that’s what the mechanical oxalate crystal is. That’s so that’s just like eating like glass, you’re eating sandpaper. And ironically enough, that might not be the most harmful form of oxalate that we consume. Because we that will pass through, we can’t absorb that very well, it might do some damage to our gut on the way out. I think a lot of like leaky gut is probably due to that, like if you’re consuming, you know, if you’re consuming glass every single day, you would expect the perforations to be a very, very thin wall of our intestine, probably, probably a little bit. But oxalate can also be a form of an ion, which means it absorbs very easily into the body and will start seeking out minerals, in particular calcium, and our bodies when we’re consuming a lot of oxalate will start to build up with this toxin, where it then causes problems causes problems in joints, where we have lots of bones and lots of calcium, it can cause problem in the eyes, it can cause problems in the lungs, one of the very first places where it causes problems. Some people if they’re not paying attention might not ever notice that they start belching or burping like 48 hours after a meal. That’s your body processing out oxalate in a very painful way.

Katie Wrigley 42:19
Oh wow.

Casey Ruff 47:59
Hiccups can be part of it. Definitely kidney stones. So that’s a lot of the like kidney stones is the one that a lot of people think of .It’s a reason why Liam Hemsworth in like 2020 had to go to the hospital and have kidney surgery. He was consuming I think it was five cups a day of spinach in this like blended spinach, amazing superfood. Stupid drink. He was drinking every single day until he had to go in for surgery. And he comes out and says like, but you should still eat a vegan diet. But just when it fails, just be ready to consider other things. So it’s like it failed for you. You acknowledge it and you still promote it to people that makes no sense.

Katie Wrigley 48:33
When it fails. Not if it fails, when it fails.

Casey Ruff 48:36
When it fails. That’s his quote. That’s exactly what he said it was his intel. Yeah, it’s ridiculous so anyway, people have issues with oxalate. And the real problem is not only do you have problems coming in, you might have worse problems within going out your body stores and holds on to oxalate in those ways to protect you because you can only detox so much every single day. And you can maybe tolerate about 125 to 150 milligrams of oxalate every single day. Well, that blended superfood beverage that you drink every morning that has cups of spinach and almond milk, and chard and beets. I did that every single day. Felt terrible that has that could have 2000 3000 milligrams of oxalate and that one dose lot of people have died by eating too much rhubarb all at once or eating too much spinach or not spinach, but starfruit all at once. This is a very highly lethal toxic products your body is going to try to hold it so it doesn’t express out of you. As people go from a high oxalate diet to a no oxalate diet. I pray for them because they will experience wicked wicked dumping symptoms, crusties in the eyes, skin rashes everywhere, gut problems or any way your body can get something out of it. oxalate will get out and if you do it too hard too soon. It’s it will be too much and physical suffering will be intense. And so we really recommend that you work with somebody who can show you how to step down. As one of our former guests and author of the book Toxic Superfoods, her name is Sally Norton, describes you have to like leave oxalate, like you’re leaving baby in a room like you just back away. She had vulvar pain, she found a low oxalate diet because she had a hysterectomy, but her parts like were on fire every single day. And to the point that she wanted all of it out. It was so painful. And she found a foundation to vulvar pain foundation that has been writing about a low oxalate diet for a long time. This is not new, it’s just so we’re suffering from it a lot more than people think. Because we’re eating more almonds and spinach and kale and chard, and dark chocolate, sorry, everybody, any nuts and seeds, these are all chemicals into parts of the plant that it wants to protect, and they can build up and they can cause a lot of damage. It’s crazy.

Katie Wrigley 50:52
And then you believe the recommended.

Casey Ruff 50:54
The nuts and seeds are recommended. That that is the plants baby. That’s the thing that most wants to protect. Oh, this is exactly why if you eat a seed, it’s a seed when it comes out. It’s protected, the plant knows that it needs to save that seed with certain oils and casings and different things that it gives the seeds so then the seed to grow. This is why a very low toxic type of a plant food would be fruit, fruit, generally speaking, doesn’t have a lot of toxins in it. Now why would that be? Well, they’re bright, they’re beautiful, amazing colors there. They taste amazing to everybody. You just benefited the plants when you ate the fruit. Because the plant thinks oh great. Somebody ate the fruit, they got the seed now they’re gonna go poop out somewhere. Fertilizer with the seed. So now a new tree can grow. And you just serve the plant that way. So the plant offers that in a very seasonal time. Not all year. Yeah, very seasonal part of the year so that you can benefit our plants. And so that’s that’s a more safe food that I think more people can handle. The big problem now is we breed our fruits for sugar and fructose. And now they’re huge volumes of sugar and fructose where a normal apple is not what you see at the store in normal care. It has nothing to do with what you see at the store. Like if your navel oranges are not a thing having just demanded bananas are not a thing like bartlett pears, these are all fruits that we have made to be uber uber, uber sweet, and other sugar bombs. So that’s the problem with fruit but it’s not the toxins, ironically, because you helped the fruit, you just get a big hit of sugar. And the problem is we do it all year round now rather than just doing it at a special time. The end of summer, early fall when we need to store that sugar as fat like we described earlier, because we’re going into winter. So it’s yeah, it’s it’s a crazy story. But it’s it’s I think it’s way I think it’s a way bigger problem that anybody is willing to admit.

Katie Wrigley 52:46
Yeah, I would say so. And there’s there’s been so much movement towards the plant based diets towards a plant based everything. And you know, of course, ethically sourced, there’s always that ethically sourced piece that’s in there no matter what or making it sustainable, I think is better word when we’re talking environment. It’s just amazing to me, how far we’ve gotten away from what really works for us and the way that we were supposed to eat the way that we were supposed to live, you know, like intermittent fasting as part of carnivore, not because it’s regulated like you hear interventive men and fasting as part of keto, I don’t know enough about it to know whether that’s part of it. You just wind up intermittent fasting with carnivore just because you don’t need to eat that much food. So then your body’s going into autophagy which is if I understand correctly, that’s where the cells are getting cleaned up. And that’s kind of where the street sweepers going in and cleaning up all the shit on the freeway while the cars are parked where they’re supposed to be.

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Casey Ruff 54:32
Love it. Yeah, I love that the analogy I’ll give on autophagy which is an amazing process is like imagine you’re building a building and every day you get a delivery of bricks, new bricks, fresh bricks every single day. And so if you break a brick, it’s no problem. You just throw it in the junk pile and you don’t need to worry about it. Well if the delivery stops. Now you get no new bricks and well now what the hell you’re going to do if you need to keep building your building. And you start to figure out like wait, these are broken bricks. But what if I glue these two together? Well, that’s one Good breath, and I can use that. And that’s what your body does. When it’s in a fasted state. It’s absolutely amazing. And I’ll give you another really great example. Some dude in my little community center that I go to lift weights and go on walks, has been walking around the track. And I’ve noticed, he’s just like, melting away. And I’ve seen this before. So I knew exactly what it was. I didn’t have to ask, but I chose to I stopped him. And I was like, Hey, dude, you’ve lost a lot of weight, you’re smaller every time I see you. What are you doing? Fasting, guess what, he does not look big anymore, because his skin is being absorbed by the body, the skin is a protein that can be recycled through autophagy. So I already knew by the way, his body was transforming, first of all, to lose 120 pounds and not feel hungry and deprive you that you’re doing, you’re doing low carb or fasting for sure. And second of all, like when I can see that your skin is reabsorbing and getting used, do your best thing. That’s the only way you can do that you look at before and after pictures that people that do fasting. They look like they haven’t been overweight a day in their life. It’s amazing. And you’re right with with, when you’re in a ketogenic state, your body is being fed by the calories and the fat, and fat that you already have. So it matters less what you put in your mouth, you’re running on calories on the body, your body doesn’t care whether it’s food, or whether it’s stuff that’s already in storage, it can run on it. And it runs really well. That was a whole reason why I got into this field in the first place was measuring metabolism on people. And people that were doing fasting were coming in with their metabolism, like several 100 calories higher than what it should have been. And it never made any sense. Like how are you not eating any calories, but you’re burning a ton of calories and all that coming from fat, like what is going on? And that’s what led me to all this to begin with. And yeah, when you’re eating that way, you don’t you don’t force fasting, you just say like eat when you’re hungry. Stop when you’re full and don’t eat again until you’re hungry again. It’s really amazing. It’s just it’s it’s so easy. So easy.

Katie Wrigley 56:53
It is, it is the hard part was making it simple. Keeping it to, letting it be easy because it’s like in my head. I’m like, okay, we gotta get into the diets frame of mind. I’m like, wait, I ate twice today and I’m done. I’m not hungry. And we’re not craving anything like what the fuck has happened? This is a diet.

Casey Ruff 57:14
Frankly, frankly, that’s the thing I need to work with. When I coach people is permission. Like that’s I don’t have to do any coaching people already know what they want to do. But giving permission to say like you can do this. It can be very simple. And you’ll just do fine just whatever sounds good that day maybe it’s salmon, maybe it’s bacon, maybe it’s a steak, whatever. Meat sounds good. Go eat that until you are so satiated you don’t even want to look at the food anymore. You have an aversion to it. You’re on track. That’s all you need to do. That’s it.

Katie Wrigley 57:40
Yeah. Yeah. And that was an I love that. And I was telling someone I was talking to her about being on the diet. They’re like, well, how much can you eat, you know, and I’m like, you eat until you want to stop eating. And they’re like, huh, I’m like, you can’t overfill like, it’s not like carbohydrate where you can override that because your body’s craving it even as you’re putting it in. It’s fat. It’s protein, it’s salt, like you’ve said, and there is a maximum amount. And I always remember thinking like, I can eat some major food though, if I get the munchies going or something. And no, it’s there were a couple of days where I was still craving sugar. But then in talking to you, I’m like, I’m still eating sugar, because I was looking at the low toxic foods that you’re given and like you’re allowed to have an apple like point sugary, and I was just craving berries one day. So I grabbed berries because like, Oh, they’re low, toxic, I can eat them. And then I’m like, Okay, this is actually keeping my sugar cravings alive. Like I’m done craving sugar. Let me just wipe those out. And so I haven’t had the only carbs I’ve had this week or in my supplements. I started up again on Wednesday. So I had zero carbs on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I so there’s it’s 12 grams of carbs total, and my supplements and two of them one has four and one has a none of them have sugar and stevia. It’s different stuff. But it’s like they have some fruits in there. So there’s those elements that are within that, but there’s also an oil that I take so I’m not actually I don’t know how to do the net carb conversion because it falls apart for me when I do that. So I just don’t even bother. So I’m sure it wasn’t even 12 because I had fat and protein in there too. But that’s it. That’s all I’m getting in carbs and I had it twice today. I think I think I ate before noon. It’s five now I’m a tiny bit hungry, but I’m actually not going to need to eat again until tomorrow that it’s not it’s more like habitual hunger, if that makes sense. Absolutely. Like my brain is going hey, you haven’t eaten I’m like yeah, but I don’t actually need to, you know, and if I wake up tomorrow and I’m feeling a little brain fog, like okay, you didn’t have enough calories the day before. Eat an extra big breakfast, get the fog gone and there you go.

Casey Ruff 59:57
So it’s not a big deal. Here’s here’s a great example we’ll use your personal experience working with me. Okay, so if you signed up when I got my nutrition certification back here somewhere, back in 2017, it was recommended lots of greens, lots of fruits and vegetables, lots of meals, meal planning all your snacks in between lean protein bla bla bla. If you worked with me with nutrition, I would sell you a twice a week, or I started twice a month, one hour session where you come in and see me, we would stock up the nutrition office with clean X’s because everybody needed him. And we would tell people what to do. Here’s your meal plan. Here’s how you’re going to balance all all your vegetables and get the rainbow and eat your whole grains, you would come back in in two weeks, because you would need the session, you would probably be emotional. And my coach, what I was trained to coach you on is behavioral therapy. So I would say like, oh, well, did you eat every meal until you’re 80%? Full? Did you make sure you journaled in your food journal about your feelings around food? No, you didn’t do that? Well, you didn’t do a good enough. Oh, you got five servings of vegetables on Tuesday? Well, we told you six to eight. So let’s work on how can we get you six to eight servings of vegetables on a day. It was great, because I knew you’d come back every other week for a year or two years. Like that’s good business. Really good business. And I can always find something where you fucked up. And I can blame you for it every single time and say like, okay, we’ll coach around this. But yeah, you weren’t very mindful on Saturday and out of the party. Why didn’t you have carrot sticks before he went to the party? It was great. It was easy. You and I talked for 30 minutes once? Yep. Do we need to talk again?

Katie Wrigley 1:01:41
No, I mean, it’s it’s easy. Like I may have questions sometimes. But no I mean, it’s, there’s no discipline either. And before we go into more of the results from the diets, you had told me something fascinating about cereal one time when we talked. And I would love for you to share that in this episode. And like, where did this idea for having this cold cereal, what we have grown up with you know the food pyramid and have your milk and your cereal and put milk in the cereal and have your juice and have all this extra sugar and shit on your stuff in the morning? Like, where did that come from?

Casey Ruff 1:02:23
Part of this complete breakfast.

Katie Wrigley 1:02:25
Yes. Part of this complete breakfast and it’s enriched like crazy. But like I can’t I haven’t eaten cereal in years because it’s so enriched with iron, like you can go to YouTube videos. And so people will like if you put cereal in a bag with milk and you let it sit, the iron will actually pull out of it. You can see the iron shards in the cereal. It is insane. And that’s the same thing would be in anything you see enriched flour, you have iron shards that you are eating with anything that is enriched.

Casey Ruff 1:02:59
Yeah, people don’t realize when you walk down the bread aisle, what you’re smelling is the yeast. It takes massive amounts of yeast to make our flour rise now, because there’s so many of those minerals and enrichments, quote unquote enrichments we added back in. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Okay, so let’s, let’s tell the story. We’re going to go back to the doctor who we mentioned earlier, Dr. Gary Fettke. Dr. Gary, Gary Fettke is an orthopedic surgeon. He works on shoulders and hips and knees as the years are going on. He’s starting to notice that Friday at the clinic at the hospital, he’s doing more and more diabetic amputations. If you’ve ever seen one, you know if you haven’t seen one, imagine the nastiest, foul smelling totally discolored, like your limb is dead literally like no blood flow. People have stories all the time about stepping on glass and not realizing it until seven days later because they had no feeling and it’s horribly infected. So every Friday he started doing more and more of these amputations to the point that his Friday staff started calling them I’m gonna get this wrong but I gotta try. SEC is fucked up fungating fructose free food folly Fridays.

Katie Wrigley 1:04:04
I can’t even read that.

Casey Ruff 1:04:06
I know it. It’s very long but funny name. But he was all he was doing was amputating feet. And so he started to go to his patients to see what they were doing. They saw the hospital food as part of the hospital food they were getting like, like three servings a day of ice cream. That’s like that standard like we have to give you this ice cream. And so he was like, whoa, hold on, you can’t do this to my patients is the last thing they need. We’re, sugar is now a poison to these people. We can’t give them any they can’t have any more. And they responded to by saying like look with the guidelines is what we have to give. This is where we get our funding and we have to do it. So he starts getting a little bit more outspoken about it. And that incurred the wrath of several organizations down in Australia. And one dude in particular was hired to basically put this guy on trial so he’s fought for six and a half years not to get his license removed. Wow, yeah, crazy. So his wife who is not, who, she had a nursing background but wasn’t in the industry. You poked Mama Bear. So Belinda, his wife was like, absolutely not. We’re going to start to research this and we’re going to get behind this. So she found that it wasn’t the sugar companies that were behind the people that were going after him. It was actually cereal companies. Okay, interesting. What are the cereal companies? Well, one of the big ones down in Australia is called Sanitarum. Sanitarium is a company that makes plant based foods and cereal and they’re owned by the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Okay, why does the church own a cereal company that they don’t pay taxes on? Interesting, little interesting. Let’s go back to the Seventh Day Adventist Church and how they started a group of millwrights were believing that Jesus was going to come back and like the mid 1940s. I want to say like 1944 and it was a lot of people it was like 100,000 people in the United States. They sold their homes and quit their jobs and stopped going to school and like they were they were set. Jesus has been come back. Apparently Jesus forgot. So Ellen White, a very young girl who as a young girl had a concussion, started getting visions from God, saying that God had actually moved spots. He’s still around, but he’s still working things out and he’s doing different things. He’s in a different spot. And he started, she started like recording visions. And as one of the people that started to work for him, John Harvey Kellogg, as a 12 year old, because his parents thought Jesus was gonna come back. They didn’t even put them in school. So then he had to get a job at age 12. His job was a typesetter for Ellen White, and Ellen White’s visions, and some of the very first visions that she was having was about how horrible carnal sin was, masturbating to Seventh Day Adventists at the time especially was like the absolute worst, worst worst defilement of your own body you could possibly do. John Harvey Kellogg had a ridiculous amount of kids, but they were all like adopted. So you’ve got this 12 year old getting these ideas about masturbation? And and it’s basically like, these are the foods that these kids are eating steak and eggs and normal food back then is causing natural desires and kids are acting on them. So the Garden of Eden diet was born to introduce bland foods to people’s diets to try to squash some of those carnal desires and prevent masturbation. Later, they did send John Harvey Kellogg to medical school so he was a doctor. He would treat people in what are called sanitariums of look, it’s basically like that those buildings are now what are hospitals that concept came from him he was the first doctor never wear a white lab coat. They would perform adult circumcisions without pain medications, adult circumcisions to help prevent masturbation. Something they promoted for a long time and not just men, by the way, not just men. Yeah. And so anyway, as part of the Garden of Eden diet they needed to create a foodstuff that was very bland that they could give to kids as an alternative to what they were eating that was driving their hormones up, and hence, cornflakes are born. The cereal industry started in Battle Creek, Michigan, a lot of you know Graham from graham crackers was in that same area of post was started by somebody else was also an Adventist in that same area, Battle Creek cereal start to get made and distributed. The first dieticians books that were ever made, were in 1910, and 1917, I want to say, by Adventists, and those books had been used to until very, very recently promoting a plant based diet, because Adventists believe that when enough people convert to Seventh-day Adventism that Jesus will finally come back. So that’s the great thing about the Seventh-day Adventists is they don’t try to hide the fact that they want people on a plant based diet, they promote it. It’s the reason why they now own the Blue Zones. Heard of the Blue Zones?

Katie Wrigley 1:08:39
From you, yes, but I hadn’t heard of that before. So please explain what those are.

Casey Ruff 1:08:44
Magical areas of the world where people are isolated. They seem to live longer than everybody else. Two scientists decided to study them and identify four of them in the world and talked about all kinds of different things like things that they ate, they talked about how they have great communities, people are born and live and die in the same area. They’re very social. They appreciate older people, lots of really cool things that help these people age and age really well. Well, in 2004 I want to say Dan Buettner was was recruited as part of the project, and he is a reporter for National Geographic and to sell this concept to people they needed to have another blue zone. So they added the fifth Blue Zone, which is Loma Linda, California, which is not an isolated place. It is not a place where people live particularly long. It’s a group of Seventh Day Adventists who who retire to this community, they eat really highly processed plant based foods. They do have a nice long life. And some people say it’s because of their diets, but it’s a completely different area. But now that’s promoted. The Blue Zones concept is now owned by the Seventh Day Adventist Church. He’s sold many best selling books they promote a near plant or sorry a near animal based, I’m sorry, a near animal free diet. Nearly 100% plant based the Blue Zones diet recommends five two ounce servings of meat every single month. That’s a total of 10 ounces of meat for the entire month. They recommend a dozen eggs over the course of the entire month. And and they promote this and now your city can can for many millions of dollars become a Blue Zones project city and be identified as a Blue Zone project city by following this plant based message. These are the people that are driving this message home. They have all this information. Belinda going back to the story. She researches Rick, uncovers all of this and realizes where are all these pressures coming from from this company that makes cereal that is owned by a church it is it is run and promoted by a religion. People don’t realize where where is all of this messaging coming from, why is Tufts University coming out with a food compass that says branded cereals like frosted flakes are green foods you should eat and red foods are ground beef and eggs cooked in butter. It’s it’s madness. It’s absolute insanity. And people don’t know and they’re trying to do the best they can. They’re trying to follow the advice. And it’s bullshit advice and people don’t know it. And they need to know because you’re going to suffer. You’re going to be obese and demented and have type two diabetes. We know that 7% of Americans are metabolically healthy according to a 2018 study that is pre pandemic 7%? 7% 93% based on a few markers at a measured identified as metabolically unhealthy in this country. Wow, the state of where we’re at, like if we created these guidelines in the 1980s and said that cholesterol was causing heart attacks in the 1960s. Why is heart attack still the number one killer in America? And now we still have a cancer problem. And all of a sudden we have an explosion of obesity and type two diabetes and all these other chronic diseases. Where’s this autism coming from? Where’s ADHD coming from? Where? Why are people getting dementia in their 50s? That’s not, that’s not like grandpa’s forgetting things. He’s got some brain fog. Like that’s some serious shit like, yeah, wrong half. And that’s why we’re being lied to.

Katie Wrigley 1:12:11
And some some of that can be explained by the screen time and what it does to overstimulate the brain. Yes, but a lot more of it can be explained by diet. You said a lot that was really interesting in there. So like the old diets, what I heard, and they’re the ones that were recommended, those were more profitable. Yes, and cereal was profitable. And what’s really interesting about the Seventh Day Adventists being behind this whole plant based movement, you know, the owner of Chick fil A, is actually a Seventh Day Adventist. Funny. Wow, isn’t it? Isn’t it? Well, but there’s canola oil. I’m sure that’s in there. So making that scratch making that scratch? Yeah, so I just in. And that’s what I’ve found over and over again, it’s like, you know, I had that episode, you talked about earlier diseases for profit. And it’s not just once you get into the medical system, it’s all the other stuff out there. That is breeding disease, for profit, before it before you get into the treatment of disease as profit. So there’s so many layers of profit there, you know, and, like, when it’s someone, it’s someone I mentioned one time like, well, you know, well, if people get healed, then when should you be out of a job? Like, yeah, what a great problem to have. But here’s the thing, 80% of people are still going to keep doing what the government says to do. So we’re never going to run out of people that want to be healthy, because there’s going to be still going to have people coming in at 80% is going to be there that 20% role is still plenty of people, for all of us in the wellness space to be able to take care of that is a massive amount of humans. I’m not good with the math. But that’s still way over. Many, many millions of people that we can all serve to gather and help and start to educate. So maybe we can get fewer people staying into this unhealthy mindset that ended the cancer rate is like 50%. I’ve heard this repeatedly now, and a lot of them are curable cancers, but we don’t even need to have cancer, like all of this can be avoidable, through diet through dealing with your shit, like through all of this stuff, like all of this can be prevented. But it’s a real thing to override those mechanisms. And I really noticed that I want to make sure I wanted to give diet observations, make sure everybody knows where to find you. But is there anything else you wanted to say? Before we go into to those pieces?

Casey Ruff 1:14:35
No, that’s great. It’s this isn’t even like new stuff like like this was known 100 years ago. Yeah. Sugar is what cancer cells need to ferment. That’s why they revert to an ancient metabolic pathway. They don’t consume oxygen, even when there’s oxygen present, which is kind of weird that our cells do that. We learned how to do that through evolution and cancer cells for whatever reason, don’t do that. So they need sugar to promote that, this this was found out by a scientist in Germany in in the 1920s. Yes, his work was so important to the German cause and what something that was actually like really near and dear to Adolf Hitler’s heart was cancer, his mom died of cancer. They kept a gay Jew scientist alive in Germany, during World War Two. This guy, Otto Warburg, he was the one that discovered what he called the Warburg effect, which means that cancer cells need sugar, they need some other things. Also, he didn’t have the complete science. If people understood that they can make different decisions about their cancer treatments, like maybe you should never eat sugar for the rest of your life, you will not die, you’ll feel fine and probably lose weight and have great mental clarity too. But let’s starve the cancer. Let’s let’s make our treatments more effective. Like all of those things can happen. And yeah, you’re right. It’s the problem is perfectly said by the guy we interviewed who talks about cancer as a metabolic disease. His name is Dr. Thomas Seyfried. And he said the problem is cancer is a revenue generating disease, until we can find a way to make a lot of money by making people healthy. These are never going to change. They create revenue, pick your industry, what is the nicest, most amazing building in your neighborhood? I’m willing to bet it’s something in the medical industry, I’m guessing it’s new dialysis center, or the new skyscraper has all kinds of medical things in it. Like, that’s where we’re going. And so yeah, when if you get off of this, you are off the grid. You don’t eat doctors and dentists, at a dentist post the other day like you can. Can anybody on Twitter that follows me which is 1000s of people one person, do you know one person who does carnivore they got one cavity? Do you know anybody? Have you heard of it? Crickets? Nothing like, you don’t think it’s amazing. It’s super simple. It’s not that expensive. And you feel great. So yeah, that’s that’s all it and I’m so excited to hear. Yeah. Oh, it’s going

Katie Wrigley 1:16:54
And it is less expensive than plants remarkably, so. So I actually ordered from Butcher box because people had recommended that to me, they have a fabulous bacon in there that has a bunch of pepper on it. So good. So all right. So what I’ve noticed is and the bloodwork is still out, so and there’s there’s a little bit of a mystery. So part of what you’ve helped me understand is that as I’m eating more meat and getting rid of these carbs, my liver function is going to improve, so that I’m not likely to go into iron overload or really trigger this condition I have and in fact, it may actually wind up reversing it and deactivating that gene because my liver function is working so much better, but we don’t know. Or maybe you know, actually in time, like about when that would happen in the process. But I’m giving labs, I have labs next month. And even if my iron tie, I’m going to stay on the carnivore diet because something tells me it’s just going to take longer, because it’ll only be probably a month that I’ve been on the diet by the time I go get lab work. I don’t remember when I’m having that. But I’m not very hungry. And the hunger when I am hungry, it’s different. So I used to get hungry, I never really get hangry sometimes, if I was really stressed, then I could. But I would start to get the low blood sugar shakes, like you said, like I would actually feel the energy leaving my body whereas now it’s just it’s it’s not as drastic, it’s not as painful. And what was really noticeable to me. So I do barre with my mom twice a week. And I before I started carnivore, I had to make sure I ate before I went because I went one time and I hadn’t eaten yet. And it’s not a superhard barre class. So I’m like I’ll just eat after I literally had to go the restaurant across the street before I got home because I was I had the blood sugar shakes and I didn’t think I was going to be able to get home without eating. Like I literally could not even make it 15 minutes home I was that hungry. I’m like I have to go get a sandwich I have to and I plowed it immediately before I left like totally undid the barre class. And then I did the same thing and wasn’t hungry in the morning after carnivore. And this was the first week this was like five days into it. And I didn’t eat I just had my tea with some goat’s milk and I moved that it used to be with coconut milk. I changed that to goat’s milk, no carbs in it at all. And I was hungry at the end of the workout. But I was not ravenous and my energy didn’t drop when I was working out. I still had plenty of energy because I was the other thing I realized in class like I had to do less and less because my energy was just going down the drain. And I kept the energy for the whole class when I was on carnivore and I was able to get home instead of having an extra expense and all that stuff and eating I mean it’s a great restaurant. I actually love it, but it’s filled with carbs and I won’t be going there for a little while but it’s absolutely delicious. It’s super easy to intermittent fast. I’m actually going about 18 hours a day without eating. I’ll eat twice I was eight aiming for 16 and then like yesterday, yesterday, I think I had a snack at two because I think I didn’t eat enough the day before. I’m like, let me grab a couple more calories. And then woke up feeling great this morning and had a nice big breakfast. And then I had a bacon quiche for lunch and it had like an onion in it which the onion felt a little weird. Like as I was dying, I was like, Ooh, this this feels very uncomfortable. But the bacon egg and the cheese.

Casey Ruff 1:20:29
Did the onion feel stronger? Was it like a much stronger taste than what you remember?

Katie Wrigley 1:20:34
Not so much? Because it was really like they had a lot of bacon in there. And they didn’t have tons of onion. Actually, no, you’re right. It did. It did taste stronger. Yeah, yeah, you’re right. Yeah. Let’s see what else the craziest thing. So I have history, I have muscle tested intolerant eggs before, I couldn’t eat eggs more than two or three times a week, Seventh Day Adventist would love me, could only eggs two or three times a week where I get massive tension headaches, like feeling like my whole head is in a vise or like from my neck, just like something is just pushing everywhere. And it’s really, really uncomfortable, especially in the neck. And so I knew that like, okay did I eat eggs, I shouldn’t eat it again. And then if I had milk, I grew up intolerant to milk when I was a baby, it was really, really bad. And it’s gotten a little less bad. Now it just kind of comes out in the form of gas. If I have too much dairy. I haven’t had any gas. I haven’t had any headaches. And I’ve been having eggs and dairy every single day. Amazing, every single day. And I am not reacting to at all. And so I was actually checking in with my practitioner who I worked with on the root cause protocol. And I told her I was doing carnivore and she’s like, you know, just there’s a couple things to watch for in here. You know, like, okay, good. I know, she’s like, you do need some carbs for brain function like

Casey Ruff 1:21:56
You make them? Yeah, right, your body makes exactly the right amount of you needed every given time you there’s no carbohydrate necessary that you have to consume. Carbohydrates aren’t necessarily inside the body. But you got to make the exact right amount at all times,

Katie Wrigley 1:22:14
Right and the brain fog is going to be the indicator of that. Like if I’m waking up with a brain fog that I’m not eating enough calories, it doesn’t mean carbohydrates. But that would be like okay, if that is something to look for, I would look for brain fog, I would look for lowered energy as the symptom that something wasn’t right.

Casey Ruff 1:22:31
You could increase your calories, you could increase your fat, especially fats that are very ketogenic and convert to ketones really easily like an MCT oil would be an example of that, where basically it’s a fat source that can’t it’s impossible to be stored it has to be burned. And so by having something like an MCT oil, your brains alternate fuel, your brain will reduce its its requirements for glucose, it needs some it’ll need about 20% but the rest of it can be fed and probably preferably quite happily buy ketones. And so as long as the ketones are coming up and supplying that fuel that should be taking care of itself. So I would assume just to guess, based on my observation, is that that will pass for you very quickly, regardless of more calories or less calories. I’ll bet you you just that will just kind of go away in another week or two.

Katie Wrigley 1:23:18
Yeah, and I’m only two weeks in and it says it takes two to four weeks to adapt so I just want to mark that for everybody as well. The poop factor because we talked about poop on this show. That’s different that’s very different there’s not nearly as much it’s not difficult you know, but I am I take magnesium and a probiotic but that’s what I’ve been on for four years for my body magnesium on and off but it’s there’s not nearly the volume and it’s not nearly as nasty as it was you know, because it’s shit is shit. I mean, there’s a reason yourself I got the shit end of the stick. It’s because it’s not pleasant. You know? It’s waste it’s leaving your body. Tt’s done bye. It’s not a pleasant thing but it’s not like it’s just it’s weird. It’s good weird.

Casey Ruff 1:24:08
It is good weird. I used to have books and magazines in my bathrooms like next to the toilet and soon after starting carnivore it’s like well this is stupid. I’d my bathroom trips take five seconds like I don’t have there’s not a lot it’s going to come out very easily and very quickly. And it’s just fine. Like imagine if I’m giving you the right exact perfect fuel that you need it into your body was designed to run on for hundreds of 1000s of years. And you just have it and you ate the right amount your body stopped you when you were too full. You and you’re using all of it none of it is really going to waste a very small amount is going to waste were the other way you know people that are constipated we just tell them to have more fiber we if they have digestive issues we give them more fiber. That’s the last last last last thing we should do that’s more bold, that’s more a stool you’re gonna have this more waste product has to pass through you, it is going to cause more damage. So that is a story here across the board on the carnivore diet. It’s cool that you observed that.

Katie Wrigley 1:25:06
Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s really fascinating. And it makes sense to let your body if your body is using more than there isn’t going to be as much waste product. But what’s amazed me I’ve tried to do intermittent fasting multiple times before and I like, for a couple of days, I could go 16 hours without eating. And I was like, watching the clock white knuckling it like I can do it, I can do it, I can do it. And at like 16 hours, you’re barely into autophagy, too like, you really want to actually push past that if you can, from what I understand about it. And I have a friend that like she’s done it for over a year, and she looks amazing. She’s lost 30 some odd pounds, she works out regularly. Like she she’s in the best shape that I’ve seen her in in years. And she has one big meal a day. That’s it. And she just eats once a day. And she’s really gotten used to that. And it really works for her. And so I’m like, I really want to try this. I could not do it until I got to the carnivore diet. And then it’s like on day two, I’m like, first I’m like, alright, let’s just change to the meat. And then I’m like, oh, wow, I just went 12 hours without eating. Am I hungry? No. Okay, well, let’s keep going.

Casey Ruff 1:26:12
Yeah, and I want to point out that you did it, your example that you gave earlier was the exact right, perfect order of doing things. If you think the way we would have lived how other carnivore animals live is like when it when you get hungry, it means it’s time to hunt. And if you get hungry, the way that a carb addicted person will get you have less energy, you feel worse, your blood sugar is tanked. When you get hungry, the way a carnivore should get, you get dialed, you’re in the fucking zone, like your brain is turned on. Because you need to go hunt. And if it just happened that like every day of not getting food you got worse and worse and worse, we would have never survived, we’re gonna get better and better and better. So the body starts burning more fat producing more ketones brain energy goes up, then when you find your food, you attack it, that should be a feast meal. And I really do think I want people to be so satiated with their meal that they have a weird aversion like even if they have two bites left. They just can’t do it. They don’t want it, people come around with a dessert thing. And you’re just like, get the hell out of here. I don’t I can’t even look at that if I wanted to. And then you go back on a fast you go, lion makes a kill eats everything that it gets first priority. And then goes and takes a nap until it’s time to feast again. And thinking about the opposite story. Think about what you were doing when you were going to get the food before the class because you needed it. Well, now you just filled your body with more calories, you started the digestive process. So now blood and energy is going to digesting the food. So now it’s even competing with the rest of your body that now needs to ramp up. But the food that you ate if they contain carbohydrates had insulin, insulin goes high, locks away all the fat and means the whatever you burn came from the food you just ate, which is carbohydrates. So it was like up and down. A complete waste. Yeah, energy probably wasn’t as good as you needed it to be you probably exclusively burn carbohydrates didn’t burn any fat, any measurable amount. And you probably went home and craved more carbohydrate. Yeah, that’s what we’re told to do. And then we just blame people and say, Oh, you’re eating too much. You’re not working out enough.

Katie Wrigley 1:28:24
Give me 50 bucks. Exactly, the profit part of it. This has been an awesome conversation. Casey, thank you so much for coming on today. So where can people find you?

Casey Ruff 1:28:35
Yeah, thank you, Katie. This has been a really fun conversation. I’m so happy for you and hope you continue to see results. It’d be interesting to see in the future, if you decide to add some foods back in to find out which ones are good and safe for you and which ones maybe were causing harm. The easiest place for people to find us is our website, which is myboundlessbody.com One of the first things you’ll see will be a book book now button that people can hit. We do ours for free. I love your system. I think that’s super smart. I really want to set that up where you charge a deposit. But we offer free 30 minute sessions for anybody around the world. People can book a session with us chat about anything if you want to talk about you know, nutrition or exercise, strength training, whatever we’re here to help, we want to help people succeed and we approach it the way you do. I would rather see a lot of people for a very short amount of time and help them really take their lives back and experience really great energy and mental clarity and food freedom and all of the things you’re describing. So again, super happy for you, then, you know people can find us at myboundlessbody.com

Katie Wrigley 1:29:35
Awesome, thank you so much Casey! Really have this has been, I can talk to you a lot longer but we’ve been going for many here so we should probably wrap it up. And thank you my cherished listener for joining me again today. Please join me again next week where I am going to be talking about the mechanical versus bio psycho social aspects of physical pain. So I hope you will join me again next week for that as we dive into it. Until then, please remember that chronic doesn’t have to mean permanent. We are a brand new podcast. We appreciate every review we get, especially the five stars. Please help us share this podcast and spread the word that you can accept the diagnosis without accepting the prognosis. You can do this by subscribing and leaving your own five star review to let us know what you like and what you want to hear more of. Thank you so much for listening today. And as always, remember that chronic doesn’t have to mean permanent.

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