EP 70 Letting Go by Letting Be

In this episode, you will learn: 

  • Why do we feel the need to “Let Go” 
  • How do we develop the courage to “Let Be” 
  • What is the Merit of “Leaving Be” 
  • How has Ayahuasca facilitated this process?
  • How Love is the only real emotion.

Episode 70: Letting Go by Letting Be

Katie Wrigley  00:04

Welcome back to The Pain Changer Podcast®. This is episode 70. And I’m your host Katie Wrigley. One of the eight keys to freedom that I discuss in my work is the power of letting go. Letting go of doubts, of fear of limits of control, letting go of your story, or at least the parts of it that are holding you back. Here’s the thing, though, we as humans, can’t actually let go. Today’s guest is going to take us deeper into that power of Letting Go by letting be so stay tuned. That’s coming right up. I have a very special guest with me today. Michael Allard, we met at my most recent Ayahuasca journey, and after hearing him speak on the power of meditation and watching him take the challenge of ceremony to a whole new level by fasting. For the three days we were in the ceremony. I knew I wanted to have him join me on my podcast and speak about the power of meditation. I’d like to start with a brief introduction, a brief introduction that Michael shared with me before we dive in. Letting go is a concept that is visited often in life when circumstances occur that causes pain and distress, whether temporary or chronic. The quandary that occurs for most of us is how to let go. We attempt a myriad of strategies and distractions to make the pain go away. Whether it be emotional, physical, or psychological. Only this finds ourselves frustrated when it doesn’t. From addiction to control prayer meditation, we endlessly loop through the highs and lows only to find ourselves coming back to where we started. What most of us don’t realize is that letting go is not something we can actually do at all. In fact, the illusion that there is someone who can let go, is what causes the pain we endure to begin with. One of Buddha’s first utterances after attaining enlightenment stated that life is sorrowful, every experience, no matter how wonderful it is, has a shelf life. Everything is impermanent, including the separate slash personal self. With all of its beliefs and conclusions. There is an idea of permanence that would like to think that has everything under control. Even when it suspects it doesn’t. It is this illusory, clinging to a self that causes us to suffer. But let’s face it, this is our reality as human beings, and this is how we relate to our world. But that being said, the question begs, can we let go? Oh, you said so much there that I want to dig into. But first, welcome to The Pain Changer Podcast®. Michael, I am so excited to dive into this with you today.

Michael Allard  02:48

Thank you very much. I’m excited as well.

KW  02:51

So would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself wherever you feel like sharing as little as you feel like sharing and what led you into meditation and to plant medicine as well?

MA  03:02

Well, I have a kind of an interesting story. I would like to think of it as, that every person walking the planet can benefit from this practice. Because if you knew how screwed up I was in my younger years, and how I was literally bipolar on steroids, both my parents were bipolar. So I was bipolar, I could see both ends of every argument. And I could win the debate and any argument on either end. That’s how extreme I was. But that was also hell. For me, especially growing up not understanding the depth and there was something mentally wrong with me that needed to be taken care of. Let’s step back a bit. I grew up in a very pious Roman Catholic upbringing. My father was the kind of guy who went to church every Sunday, we did catechism, we did all that, me and my family. And I always had this kind of a spiritual inkling my father was always mentioning truths growing up, he always had every saying there was what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Those types of things. But anyways, I grew up in a very religious background, but it never sat right with me. There was always something about it that I was in doubt about And so when I got confirmed at 15 years old and my mother said, Well, according to the church, I don’t know if you know anything about Roman Catholicism. But when you’re confirmed you’re considered an adult. And so she sat me down, she said, Well, you’re an adult now. And you can choose whether you wish to continue going to church or not. And I didn’t even think half a second about, I said, I’m done, but there’s still the roots, all the groundwork was laid there. The Catholic Church is where I got most of my understanding at that time of what morality was, and all of that. But it was also very dualistic, in its approach, you know, I can remember the nuns, saying, Every time you sin you get a black marker of a whiteboard, And everything’s a sin and in catholicism practically, my Blackboard, in my mind filled up very quick, at a very young age. So I saw myself as a negative. So anyways, that carried through. And when I was in my late 20s, I had already kind of gone through the motions, as far as success, and all that I was, I was running a business for this other gentleman had gotten married, all of that fill, you know, filled out the, the requirements for what I was taught was a happy life. But I was not happy, I was fucking miserable. I mean, in a way. So, in my late 20s, I had my night of the I can’t think of the word. It was either suicide, or I had to find some way. I think of the term now. Anyways, doesn’t really matter.

KW  07:29

At a really low point, if you’re considering suicide,

MA  07:31

That was my spiritual low point, and I went into, you know, a very, very deep depression. And now, the family that I grew up in, this is kind of interesting. They didn’t put a lot of emphasis on education. So we didn’t, we did everything that school required us to do, but we weren’t readers and neither of my parents read books or anything like that. And I was walking through a mall one day with my wife. And I was very deeply depressed. And as a whole, you know how bad things can be. When you’re in acid, I mean, anyone who’s been through any type of depressed state knows what I’m talking about. But anyways, I’m walking through the mall, and I’m looking into a bookstore. And I see on the display, right in the front of the bookstore, a book that was called Tibetan Book of Living and die. I didn’t know what Tibet was. I didn’t even know at that time, really, what Buddhism was, I knew it was a religion out there. But anyways, I sat down. When I got home that day, I read that book, pretty much from cover to cover. And I felt like I was looking in a mirror. When I read this book, and it was like my words that were, in my mind reading the book where we’re, it felt like I’ve known this forever. Everything that this book said, it was like, Oh, my God. And, and so at that point, I knew that all of the anguish and all of the frustration and all of the pain, mental pain, psychological pain, emotional pain that I had gone through was because I was denying reality. And here’s what it comes down to. I was denying reality. I was living in some sort of a bubble of what I thought life was supposed to be like, and not what it was actually, like? So, that book introduced dzogchen meditation for me for the first time and it was also translated as natural, great perfection. Basically, what that comes down to is everything that’s occurring right now, regardless of whether we know it or not, is perfect in the way that it’s happening. Even the feeling of victimhood in a sense can be can be seen two ways you can be the victim or you can, actually love the victim, and then it transforms itself, the feeling of victimhood, you can actually see into why that occurs, and you can be that without actually identifying whether you can be that victimhood, so, I forget where I was going with all this now.

KW  11:18

This is what’s leading you to meditation and to eventually to plant medicine.

MA  11:23

Right. So, I took on the dzogchen practice. I met with a teacher who had just pretty much come over from India, where he had spent six years in silent retreat to become a lama. And I won’t mention his name here only because I didn’t talk to him about this. And this was back when I was probably about, I would say 33 years old, because 27 was when I had my breakdown, when I really tried to do it on my own for quite a while. And then I started going on retreats, and learning about dzogchen. Now dzogchen basically is the simplest practice there is it was considered the steepest practice because there’s no handholds. you’re just sitting with whatever you’re sitting with. And if we’re of the frame of mind, where we feel like we’re in pain, that’s when you can notice that, feeling of victimhood that comes up there, when there’s a me, I like to call me-ing, there’s like this me-ing instead of being, you know, there’s this person there, there’s a me there that’s having that’s like it having this experience. And, and depending on what the experience is, if it’s painful, we will feel like a victim. If it’s not painful, then we’ll feel you know, whatever that is happy, elated, blissful, or whatever. So I keep going off on this tangent.

KW  13:21

Keep going, this is great. This is great. It’s a good background, and a lot of people can resonate with those dark pits of despair. 

MA  13:29

oh, it doesn’t get any dark night of the soul.

KW  13:34

Dark Night of the Soul. Yeah, that’s a lot of people.

MA  13:39

Yeah, I mean, I had so many types of experiences during that, psychic experiences out of body experience, I can tell you all. being depressed, when you do something about it, that you can actually use it as, the absolute tool to wake up. I mean, that’s what it’s there for. That’s what ayahuasca taught me, that everything, every single experience we’re having that’s painful in any way, is actually our own true nature, trying to show us who we are and calling us back to who we are. It just circles around and comes back to that. It’s like whatever tangent we want to go out on whatever distraction we want to get caught up in. If it’s painful, and we always know there’s something in us that knows, that knows if it’s not right. It doesn’t sit right, and so it’s calling us back it’s getting us to look is getting us to see that stuff that were so identified with that’s kind of blind to the whole reality of the situation. That’s why we make a message that we make is because we’re really blind. That’s what I would say if we were blind, we wouldn’t do the things that we would do because we know it’s in our best interest not to. 

KW  15:10

We know when we’re in those moments that it’s not right for us because we find ways to justify it. And we have to tell everybody in our world why it’s right for us. So that’s your clue when you’re doing something that’s not right for you is when you feel the need to justify it to everybody. Or at least that’s one of my clues for myself. I’m like, you know, if I need to justify it to this level, this probably isn’t the right thing.

MA  15:33

Yeah. exactly. So getting to letting go. So meditate dzogchen meditation, the way that it was taught to me, Tibetan Buddhism is very rich in tradition has a lot of prayers and mantras, but as far as the practice that goes, we prepare ourselves for. Basically, what we do when you’re sitting for dzogchen practice, is you just arrive wherever you’re at doesn’t matter where you are, you could be sitting, you could be standing, you can do walking, it doesn’t matter, you just arrive. Anyway, you were talking about earlier about Cognomovement. That’s kind of what arriving is, you’re arriving to the experience of being right here. And that’s, it’s infinity there, that’s why that experience, the more that you can realize what’s here, the more you realize, what’s always been here, and what will always be here and doesn’t come and doesn’t go and it’s just here, you know, the more that we can, tune into that adjust to that, let go into that by being that by allowing ourselves our Braveheart to be whatever it is that we’re feeling, even when it’s very uncomfortable, because we know deep in our mind, that it’s only going to better benefit me, it’s in my best self interest self with the capital S, the big self to know this, and I would say for the small self is too even though it’s going to resist the whole way, doesn’t want to, in any way, be threatened. That small self that we so delicately put together not only in this lifetime, but I would say in countless lifetimes. This this habit of self which, by itself, you know, you have to love it, because it’s just a survival mechanism is all it’s ever been. It’s a way of coping in this world, the more complicated the world gets, the more it seems like it’s tough to, to cope with it. And that’s why we have all, you know, addictions that we have now, it’s just crazy. Now.

KW  18:12

It’s that resistance to what’s going on. that resistance to being so in Cognomovement. We call it like meeting yourself where you are. Ayahuasca works the same way. Like we were talking before we got in that, we go into ceremony, we think it’s gonna be a certain way. And it’s never that way, just by design. And she’s like, Yeah, no, you think you’re in control. Like, she even laughed at me. And one of the times it ceremonious last night, she’s like, you’re not in control. I was like, Oh, shit, yeah. And she’s not in control. She’s like, you get to go to the bathroom. The rest of it’s on me, I’m like, okay, got it.

MA  18:53

It’s very interesting, you just brought something to mind. For me, that’s been coming up for me. So building up, you know, the whole Tibetan practice, I spent 30 years practicing dzogchen every day, pretty much every day and kind of on one hand how many days a year I didn’t practice formally. But then what happens because we formally practice arriving, like you said, that eventually will just, go right out into the world with you and you start to realize you can you can do it anytime, just just come back to here, and everything that’s out there that’s bothering us is still gonna be there. But we can just let go. And that’s the whole point. That took a long time for me to realize that letting go is just letting be. That’s where the heart comes from when the generosity, all of that, the patience, the forbearance all of these qualities that spiritual people speak of comes from our willingness to to just be and not take it personal. That’s the hard part. And if we do take it personal love that, taking it personal, you know that whatever the entity that feels like and it’ll let you even even more, it’ll let you in even more. That’s what ayahuasca shows you too. So to whatever degree we can be with it, we can love it and admit when we don’t love it. That’s kind of loving it is admitting when we don’t love it, that’s loving the truth, more than what we think is supposed to be the truth. So that’s very deep stuff. So the Tibetan tradition is very rich, it has a lineage, I have a lineage that I brought with me to this practice, I had no idea what to expect when I came. I had done LSD and mushrooms and stuff like that in the past. And I’ve been a weed smoker, probably since I was 15 years old, off and on. But I’ve always found that,especially mushrooms and weed, I always would make it, turn it inward. It was always something very private for me to turn it in when and use it as a spiritual practice, because that’s where you wake up, when it’s just recreational. It’s fun and all that, but I don’t think you get the same benefit from it, then when you turn it on. 

KW  21:38

Absolutely. I agree.

MA  21:43

I’m 62 years old. So I grew up in the 80s, I went through the whole thing, with all that as far as  experimenting. So I know a little bit, I would say about the effects of all these drugs, except for the real hard ones. I didn’t do anything like that. But I understand spiritually how they open you up. And it can help if you allow it to. So weed has always been I would call it a part of, I would call it a tool in my practice. And I don’t do it all the time. I only do it once in a while and but anyways, make a long story short, ayahuasca. the lineage that I was introduced to and what I feel, it’s a tradition that is an oral tradition, so which is what’s very interesting about today is we have zoom in the internet and all that. But it used to be just teacher to student for 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of years. And that that lineage was imprinted on me. And when I went to this Ayahuasca retreat, the last time the lineage became very, very, very obvious, in a way, the heart intention of the lineage, what it’s all about. And there’s also, I mean, I don’t know how deep I can go into this, some of its kind of I don’t know, if anybody would relate to it if they weren’t actually a practicing Buddhist. But within Buddhism within the practice that we do. There is the form list. What we would call, you know, just what we can’t see, what we can’t relate to what we can’t put into words, what we know is there but we can’t see it. But we can actually allow ourselves to be it if we can relax into it. When it comes into form, when the self comes into form, there’s what we would call in Tibetan Buddhism Bodhisattva, it’s, if you can rest in that coming into form and becoming something we would pray in my tradition, there’s like 100 syllable mantra that we used to pray directly to Bodhisattva. That’s the practice that I was doing when I took it to the ayahuasca ceremony, I was taking this practice. And what I discovered is that ayahuasca is the agent that allows that, that’s what’s so powerful. It takes what’s hidden from us, and it reveals it to us, and brings it into form. And that, again, it will do it regardless of what that the fruit of that is, the outcome of that is how we feel about it, you know, how the experiences and and the more that we can deeply get into that, the more that we can pay attention to that and be that the more than we benefit from it. And then when we find out about ourselves, and that’s the craziest thing of all, it’s just finding out how we hold ourselves together we’re so good at it. It’s amazing, we’re so clever. And it’s all these ways that we develop, again, I would say, maybe over lifetimes, if not in this life, to be able to navigate our way through life. Because it’s a scary place, we have to admit that too it’s a scary place, And fear is something that is definitely a red flag that we can pay attention to when when it comes out for us.

KW  26:34

Right. And that’s, that was part of what she showed me in the ceremony and this may have been in the psilocybin and not with Ayahuasca but part of what I got was, and you’ve probably discovered this in your own meditation and journeys with plant medicine. The only real emotion is love, fear, and everything else is an illusion. It’s part of this 3D world. And it feels very real, like I did during the psilocybin ceremony. And I had shared this in a previous episode as well. That was the only time I’ve ever freaked out in a ceremony. And it was because I was in complete resistance to what the medicine was trying to show me. And prior to that, like it was probably the most blissful, amazing, joyful, like I was cracking up. I was laughing so hard that Shannon started laughing even like watching me. Like it was just pure bliss, pure joy. But then I wasn’t getting the message of trust for myself. And my mind just started going to different places. And I was trying to pull back like okay, like if fear isn’t real, why am I scared shitless right now? And I was really struggling. And I know this may be a hard concept for people who haven’t done psychedelics who haven’t done deep journeying with meditation, or even like with Cognomovement, we go into fourth and fifth dimension as well. And that’s part of where we’re going and plant medicine. And there’s this spiritual component, this formless thing that we can’t anthropomorphize, we can’t put into a form there is a power in there that’s inexplicable. And that to me is that the power that is Ayahuasca is the power of the plants. It is the power of connecting to the universe, to this infinite source of love that’s there for everybody and understanding. And I don’t think I really fully understand yet. Why fear is such a big part of our world in this 3d reality that we’re all living in. Because if nothing feels more real than being scared out of your fucking mind, like that, being in love with someone can feel less real than being scared out of your mind. But yet, love is the only real emotion. Everything else is bullshit. Everything else is an illusion. And it’s a derivative of fear. And it’s used to control us, which is the opposite of being is the opposite of leaving be.

MA  29:07

Exactly. And I would say that fear really Is love. That’s not seen as love.

KW  29:18

Oh, now that’s an interesting take. I hadn’t thought of continuing.

MA  29:23

Well, it’s again, alluding to the whole Ayahuasca experience, that everything, even in our hardest moments is meant to bring us back to that feeling of love, even fear, even fright, anger, all of these things that are uncomfortable for us. It Is love. It’s just not seen as love. we’re not supposed to take it personally. We’re not supposed to make a self out of it. We’re supposed to just experience the whole thing as love. And that’s what I’ve been learning that’s been the hardest part for me is over these years, and I’m just starting to learn how to love myself how to how to see all the things that I detest about myself, and look at it directly and say to myself, you’re just love, and helping me to see that going deeper into it, having it unravel itself, and show itself for what it really is. Fear isn’t the big scary monster that we think it is, it’s actually love trying to protect us in some way. Some way,

KW  30:50

Wow, I love that that’s such a good, that’s such a great perspective shift, I’m gonna remember that the next time I start feeling anxious or fearful. So I want to go into the topic we’re talking about, about letting go. And you know, and hopefully answer that question of, can we even let go? So where does this even come from, this need to let go, that we start having in life, where we need to let go, it’s surrendering. So why have this need?

MA  31:23

Because of conflict, we feel conflicted, we feel dual, we know deep down that things aren’t as separate as we make them out to be. And because of that, because we make things so fixed in our minds, we feel this need to get away. It starts out as a distraction, we’ll do anything we can to get away from that, that knowing that things are more conflicted than we want to admit. And that builds up, like a pressure cooker in a sense. And sometimes very short periods, sometimes over very long times. And but we get caught up in these ways of distracting ourselves in our addictions in any way to avoid the fact that we really don’t exist, that the stuff that we hold on to So, tightly really offended deep scrutiny if you really, look at it, and it really doesn’t exist. And that’s why they always have these laughing Buddhas and stuff. It’s true and so, it’s freeing to know that, but until we know that you’re going to feel the need to let go. And then once you’ve kind of seen all the distractions, you’ve seen the world for what it is, you know, you’re not going to be happy by, any of the ways that the world has taught us that’s not going to bring us the, the happiness that we’re really seeking, it’ll bring us some things but not that. 

KW  33:25

concept of illusion. 

MA  33:29

So once we’ve seen all that, once we’ve seen all of the ways, that we’re kidding ourselves, and this is kind of where the dark night of the soul comes in, then you realize, I have to, turn inwards. And we’re told, the only way that we’re going to be happy is to let go of what we’re holding on to. It’s so simple, all we have to do is let go of what we’re holding on to this. And that’s not in reality. How to do that you have to let all the things that are occurring. To let be, that’s how we let go. That’s where we have to turn it over to whatever that wisdom or love or whatever it is, it’s out there, it will bring it home. And that’s the only way we’re going to bring ourselves home is to surrender ourselves to that trust that you just mentioned. You have to have faith, all of that comes from that devotion, the trust. That’s where we’re headed with it all. That’s where the practice leads us. That’s what eventually will free us and in the way we can free everybody else that’s around us, this is where all the mystics come from and all, So let it be, To Let It Be you welcome it, you develop the heart of welcoming and once you start to see that it’s actually benefiting you to let it be even though it hurts, it sucks and you want to cry or whatever. Or purge. That’s okay. So that’s what I was purging over these kinds of discussions right now.

KW  35:40

Urgent, a lot. 

MA  35:48

Anyways, letting it be letting that fucked up self be. feeling how it is.

KW  35:55

And I had a similar message that she had told me that we’re every single soul is sovereign. And every single soul choose its journey animal. I don’t know if plants have a soul or not, but animals, us, we’ve all had our journey. And a big lesson she showed me is it is not up to you to interfere with anyone else’s journey. And so like my cat who’s laying next to me here, he’s a great example. I’m still undoing this and full disclosure. So you know, Shannon kind of called me on it during our integration call of like, you’re trying to control the cat, you’re trying to control the dog. I’m like, okay, to a point. I feel like there needs to be but I’m like, I know that that’s bullshit. But I had started to keep them inside last fall, when a bald eagle started to stalk him not really looking at it as well. They were actually inside every time the eagle cruise by because they are tuned in. So they get themselves to safety. And so once I came back from ceremony, I started to let them out. They have this bill enclosure, I put in the backyard and everything. And then recently, I’ve started to let them out even when I’m not home and just start to trust that they’re going to be okay. And that, you know if it’s this cat journey, because he is so adventurous, like his favorite thing in the world is being outside.

MA  37:13

You live in the sticks a little bit 

KW  37:15

a little bit in the sticks. there’s some predators around here. We got the eagle I talked about, there’s Fisher cats that come through here. There’s coyotes at night. I’m still not up for the night thing that is not quite there yet. But I’m working on it. But there’s a chance that something could come by during that or even just a stranger dog getting out or getting out of someone’s yard, you know, there’s so many things. But I’m letting go trying to control this because I live my life freely. And I would willingly sacrifice a longer lifespan where I’m bored, where I’m not happy for one that’s shorter, and more rich and more filled with experiences. So how can I take that away from my pets? How can I make them have a boring ass life inside, where they’re safe? And they’re not happy? Versus allowing them to go out? And yes, there’s a risk with that. Then maybe that’s what this cat signed up for?

MA  38:11

Do you have cat door. By chance? 

KW  38:15

I do. Yeah, they can go in and out all day long. 

MA  38:18

So they can do it at night as well. Or you lock them up at night?

KW  38:21

I lock them up at night still. So I can I can decide when the door is open and closed. 

MA  38:26

We did that. I’ll just tell you this very short story. Because we come from New Hampshire, we only moved down here to Florida two years ago. We had brought five cats with us. They’re 16, 17 and 18. Right? Well, within that age group. And we got them as litter mates back in New Hampshire. And before we had them whenever, we didn’t have a cat door. And That’s how the cats get taken out by Fisher cats or, coyotes, or Foxes and stuff like that. But ever since we put that cat door in, we never lost a cat. As you said, as they know, they’re more attuned to their environment than we are the minute they’re going out there a little happier. Their nose is already up in the air and they’re already listening. And they know. So if there’s a predator around, they’re gonna know. That changed my whole mind. But basically giving the cats the, you know, the freedom to do whatever they want. Yeah.

KW  39:38

Yeah. And I’m working on that. But I mean, he’s, I mean, he can be out right now. 

MA  39:45

Keeping him in at night wouldn’t be a big deal. He probably doesn’t care about anything.

KW  39:49

I don’t think he does. Actually. As long as he gets to go out during the day. He’s pretty happy. I mean, he’s even outside in the rain. He likes being outside so much and he’s fluffy. I mean, when he gets wet, it takes a minute for him to dry. I, but he loves it. And so they’re constantly mirroring to me the work that I have to do with letting go of control, and my dog who was in there a little while ago, she used to be really reactive to them. Now they’re all figuring out how to be friends. And it’s when what changes, I let go of the fear, the fear of her killing them, the fear of her hurting them, the fear of having to rush an injured animal to the vet.

MA  40:28

to have as happy a life as they can. 

KW  40:30

Right. Yeah. And because I’m not afraid, she’s not afraid. So now she’s trying to figure out how to be friends with them. And they’re trying to figure out how to be friends with her. And they’re all getting along, because I stopped being afraid of it.

MA  40:46

It’s so true, isn’t it? I noticed that when I walk dogs around, you can tell a lot about the owners of the dog by the dogs, you know, if the dogs are really angry, or very skittish, or whatever. And you I’ve been I watched, you know, if the dogs are very friendly, then I’ll watch the owners as well. Yes, there is a dichotomy there that is, you know, it’s usually right there. Except, you know, every once in a while you see dogs that come from shelters and stuff that are really screwed up. And, you know, and that’s unfortunate.

KW  41:18

Yeah, they’ve been abused, they haven’t been loved. They haven’t been around a human enough, you know, but they reflect it. And that’s a great point, because my dog was super anxious for years. And she’s still getting over her fear of dogs, because I’m still getting over my fear of dogs from another dog attacking her when she was younger, and just other people putting their fear of dogs on me and like reporting different accidents and stuff that had happened, in a dog fight is awful to witness. And that’s part of what I struggle with is I can’t even watch a movie where animals get hurt without crying. Even though it’s fake in the movie, it just hurts my soul to watch an animal get hurt. It just bothers me. And so I went over the edge trying to compensate for that. And so my poor dog, and she’s a German Shepherd. And she’s a really sensitive dog. And I’m a really sensitive person. And she reflects that on me. But she’s, oh, man. I mean, you haven’t heard a peep out of her. She’s so good, because I’ve slowed my role and let go of fear. And so she’s letting go of fear. And she’s able to have a more relaxed, confident life now. Yeah, because they’re definitely tuned into us. There’s no doubt about that. Yeah. 

MA  42:40

And what you said earlier. I had that experience recently. It’s kind of an interesting story. My father and I have always had a, I would say, kind of a contemptuous relationship. Only because we’re like magnets that are so we’re both positively charged. So when we come together, we’re like fishing away. And I do believe it’s kind of like that. But he’s in his late 80s, both my parents are still alive, which shocks the hell out of me. And, there’s always this side of me, I see how much he struggles and he’s been in a lot of pain most of his life physically. And, I know, he’s resisting his situation tremendously in many ways, even though he makes the best of it. He does the best he can, but he really is having a hard time. And I want to help him, so badly and enlighten him with my wisdom, which isn’t never he’s never gonna listen to this kid anyways. But those words came up for me. I had wanted to fix him. I didn’t even know I was doing it subconsciously. I was trying to fix him. And, the words and I heard it, for me, it was Jesus. That’s a big part of this story, too, Jesus is the reason why I became a Buddhist. I heard Jesus very clearly in my mind, say, leave him alone. I got this. Yeah, I got this. I was like wow. and it was so clear. 

KW  44:51


MA  44:51

And then Jesus was gonna show me how My ego is playing a role in it too. But the way he would say, leave him alone I got this. And I took it to heart. Like Yeah. Okay. And I’ve been fine with my dad ever since. And totally fine with him. This happened maybe a month ago and um, I’ve always had this little bit of friction area. It’s gone. It’s weird. And because I’ve released him in a way.

KW  45:30

Yeah, there’s a fine line.

MA  45:33

And I realized I’ve been trying to fix him my whole life.

KW  45:37

Ah, similar to my dynamic with my mom. And that’s something I’m just letting her be, as she is, and doesn’t mean that I don’t want to help in healthy ways. And I do help in healthy ways. But I was trying to fix her. I was trying to bring her back to before she had started to have her health decline before. When I was still denying the fact that they’re, they’re elderly. Now they’re in their late 70s. They have limits. And I’m like, no, no, they can’t have limits. There’s so much we can do. But those weren’t their choices. But they’re letting me help now. They’re welcoming the help. They’re asking for it. That’s different from fixing. Fixing is when I’m pushing my agenda on them. You need to try this. You need to try that. I know and you need to follow that. I’m like Screw you no we dont we don’t we get to do us the same way. We let you do you? Yeah, the way it works.

MA  46:40

Yeah. That saying do unto others as you had done. That’s been my golden rule and it is the golden rule. I’ve lived by that. But you go deep into that. That’s exactly it. That’s what I want. You know what, I want someone trying to fix me if I didn’t feel I needed to be fixed if I was comfortable with my situation.

KW  47:04

Like my dad just had neurosurgery on his C3, C4. And he asked for my help to get the feeling back in his hands and feet, because that was his biggest symptom is his hands and feet started going down. And so he asked, he said, can you do Cognomovement to help me get back the feeling on my nerves I’m like, absolutely. But that’s not me saying, Oh, I can fix this. That’s him saying, Can you help me feel better? Very, different. And with my mom, she works with a practitioner friend of mine with Cognomovement. But she loves it. She gets a lot out of it. She’s excited at the improvement that she’s seeing. But in all of this that we’re talking about, these are all great examples of letting be you letting your dad but your dad, me letting my mom and my mom and my dad be my dad and let my cats be my cats and my dog be my dog. And me be me and me focusing on what is me being me instead of what are all these other things and people doing around here and how can I step in and get in their way? Like that’s basically what I was doing before and I’ve been sleeping a lot better. I’ve been feeling a lot better since I started be like, Okay, what do I need to do today? what’s on my list for my purpose? Because it sure is shit isn’t taking care of everybody else. That’s not why I’m here. I’m here to help people heal. I’m here to help people have a better life if they want that. It’s not up to me to decide.

MA  48:33

I love what you said. I saw that in one of your YouTube videos. You listed the reasons why you should be here and the reasons why you shouldn’t do something along those lines. What would bring you here and why you shouldn’t be here. Why you shouldn’t be here. Why should you be here? Do you remember that?  The Reason Why You Should Be Here is because you’re ready. You’re open. You’re curious And the reasons why you shouldn’t be are basically the opposite. 

KW  49:08

Yes. Now I remember That was in a training I recently did. 

MA  49:13

I thought that was perfect. 

KW  49:15

Thank you. And you have to be ready. And that can be really frustrating when you know, you have the power to help someone and facilitate healing for them. Letting them not make that choice was really difficult. But now it’s so much easier. And I have this conversation with people I work with a lot like Oh, it’s so frustrating when I know I can help them like, they have to be ready. they have to be ready. You can’t force this on them and you’re gonna make my life more difficult by forcing me on them when they aren’t ready for me. Because I’m gonna be fighting them the whole session because they don’t want to be there. I would much rather wait a month, three months, six months. Yes. Maybe their life goes to shit at that time. That is their choice. And they have to be able to make it 

MA  50:02

That’s love. 

KW  50:03

And it gets easier and easier because it feels easier in my body. And I realized that I’m more effective when someone is sitting in front of me fully ready for the work that we’re doing. And we see massive changes. And people talk about letting go of anger that they’ve held for eight years, and finding gratitude and something they never thought they’d have gratitude for. And that culminating in wanting to dance with their kids again, for the first time, like in one session, that much changed, because they were wide open and fully ready, they wanted to be there, they had no hesitation, I have so much respect for anyone who shows up with me and just brings it like that. And I would much rather have my days filled with clients who just come in, leave it all out, let it go. let themselves be helped them get rid of whatever is in there that’s preventing them from being And continuing on.

MA  51:04

The interesting thing is, the more you can let them make their own choices, the more they’re going to appreciate what you do. That’s where the love comes in again. when you say, they’re ready, they’re ready. If they’re not, they’re not, you know, that’s love. That’s recognition. That’s respecting the dignity of that person. The natural dignity, that person.

KW  51:53

Thank you for that. To me that’s respecting that soul sovereignty, and that’s one of the concepts of Bill McKenna, the founder of Cognomovement talks about a lot is people have their reasons. They don’t have to make sense to us, I don’t have to agree with them, I don’t have to like them. But I do have to give them their same respect that I want to be given. Because if I’m not ready to see something, I’m not ready to see something. And there’s nothing you can do, that’s going to make me get ready to see that until I’m ready to see it. And everybody else on this earth operates that same way, until we’re ready, we aren’t going to see it. Period.

MA  52:40

And this is where the whole natural great perfection is alluding to, is that everything is working itself out. Even if it seems horrible it really is Love, is what’s behind it. And we’re all here basically, to work it out. So, that’s kind of where natural great perfection goes, the more that we recognize in ourselves, how that’s worked for ourselves, the more that it will naturally without us even having to know it vibrate out there amongst us with everybody else. And that’s how the world will eventually heal itself. But that takes a lot of trust and a lot of faith. And if you don’t believe it’s hard to have that kind of understanding if you don’t believe that we’re just reincarnation is real and that we just, we’re we just come back and come back and come back that it isn’t just all done in one life. That would make it very hard to see it that way. so love

KW  54:00

To just have one life.

MA  54:03

We have one life as ourselves, this and that’s it and then the next form is the next form is and we don’t really have a say in that. I guess that’s what the Tibetans are a little different though because they have a whole Toku system where they can come back and reincarnate where they say they want to and you know stuff like that. So that’s kind of interesting. I’m not there yet.

KW  54:28

I’m sure you’ve heard of this, I think it’s called the egg theory. But the basically like the concept of the egg that we’re all one and we just live out every single iteration of every life that there possibly is. And I don’t try to push my beliefs anywhere else. But I do believe in reincarnation. I’ve been aware of other lives. It’s been the only way to explain certain things like why do I go to Salem, Massachusetts and get chills like I don’t know why. But as a kid, I’m just like, I remember looking around going, why is this familiar? Like, okay, that wasn’t there. And that wasn’t there in that way. But this house, the house of Seven Gables, that was here, it looked different. But that was here. So like, how do you explain that? Like, I certainly wasn’t alive during this iteration of me, was not alive during the Salem witch trials. But some other iteration of me was

MA  55:29

Right that deep down understanding was that isn’t that doesn’t require itself.

KW  55:32

Right. Yeah. And those are the concepts that I still have a really hard time grasping in a sober mind. But when I’m talking to ayahuasca, I’m like, Oh, it makes so much sense.

MA  55:50

Yeah, yeah,

KW  55:52

It does. So how can people start to find this courage to leave be damned to follow similar examples of what we’ve been talking about in our own lives and, you know, hearing, both of us struggle, your struggle with your dad, and now it’s so easy to be with him and Jesus took over and you get to take a back seat How can someone start to find those levels of courage, Michael?

MA  56:19

I think that it starts out, you just have to embrace the concept that, if we can let go, there is a healing that’s already taking place to whatever degree we can. And it takes a tremendous amount of self honesty too, because we can’t bullshit ourselves, we have to know when what we’re feeling is real, and we have to know if it’s what we think is real, there’s, a big difference there, when the thinker is involved, then there’s going to be a belief system attached to it and, a way away from the reality of it. So in the beginning, we have to really contemplate that, you have to look into that, you know, if you don’t believe in something that’s wiser than us, that’s going to be hard. It’s not like there’s an entity out there, our true nature is what the Buddhists would call it, it’s who we really are, it’s our God nature, Christ, nature, doesn’t matter what we call it. Ayahuasca nature, if you want to call it that. But we have to trust that, healing is just an attitude away. The attitude is, I’m going to trust my experience and be honest with myself and I’m going to let myself be it to whatever degree I can be that I’m going to sit with myself and allow the process to work itself out because it’s like an unraveling process, it’s like everything that we think we are got to that point, in a very tight way. And so we were doing by taking that very way, or allowing it to unravel itself to reveal itself to show all the nooks and crannies and all the ways that it held itself together. So there is no right way or wrong way to do this. The only requirement I would say is that we’re just very honest about our experience we get to have to really get to know ourselves you have to we have to find our heart we have to know our true intention which is to be free not free in a materialistic way but free in ourselves free of all of the ways that we that we that we tricked ourselves all of that what we really want deep down inside we just want to be one with everything because we know we are and that’s the beauty of it all is the natural great perfection is that that’s the realization is that we already are what we seek. My teacher had a shirt that said there we have what we see. That’s what we are, we really just don’t know it. We think there’s some way of going about it. And those that’s what we have to be awakened to, that’s what we have to see, we have to see all of the different ways that this “I”. That was another big influence in my life was A hermit in India by the name of Ramana Maharshi. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Ramana Maharshi, he was back in the 1950s. But his whole practice was to ask himself very deeply, who am I? What is this “I”?  you were saying earlier that every single person has sovereignty to them. But every one of those persons also has an “I”. And that’s what’s interesting, because I think when we really look into that “I” that we all refer to, that’s the oneness if we can uncover all of that, who am I? What is this “I”? Where is this “I”?, all of that and really, unfolds. But the attitude is, one of openness, one of curiosity, one of wanting to know, and that’s when you referred earlier to people not being ready, you have to know when you’re not ready, and respect that in yourself to you may just not be ready. And respect that, respect yourself for that. Feel that and it will work itself out. the more that we can love our experience, the more that it will clarify itself and heal itself. So, that’s basically it.

KW  1:01:39

Yeah, and I love that thank you for sharing that, and, again, like when we’re saying, leave something be, it’s not the same as like, you know, Jesus take the wheel, and you just stop participating. Like, I still feed my cat, I still give them vet care. I still do anti tick medication, but that’s more on them for me, because I don’t want ticks to come into my house, but I still put anti tick medication on them, I still bring them in at night. And I’m letting them be as free as I’m comfortable being as I continue to grow, that’ll expand. And same thing with the people around me there’s less and less need to control need to push my own beliefs, my own systems on anyone else. And understanding when people aren’t ready and giving them that place to not be ready. And there’s a difference between not being ready, you’ll know when you’re not ready. And when you are ready, being ready doesn’t mean that you have an absence of fear that you don’t have some trepidation. Going into a new experience. That’s not a sign that you’re not ready. You will know in your soul. This is not for me right now. Or this is not for me, that’s your sign that you’re not ready. But when you’re feeling called to it, something keeps coming up for you again and again. And again. You may still have feelings about it. That does not mean you’re not ready. You actually probably already. And you’re just afraid because you don’t know what’s going to happen. And it’s good to be a little afraid going into the ceremony because you don’t know what’s gonna happen. So just don’t let anybody else get in your head ahead of time. That was a good lesson for the last time.

MA  1:03:26

Right? I wish I would have known at a young age that all of the things I was trying to force myself to let go in an unhealthy way. Through distraction through whatever. We’re all basically addicts in some way or another and our distractions, typically our addictions so all of those

KW  1:04:07

like, where this is going addictions as distractions very true, very true

MA  1:04:30

I have a tendency every once in a while that that will happen. I’ll lose track of where I was. But anyways, what was the subject?

KW  1:04:47

Well, you we’re talking a little bit about addiction and how all of us are addicts at some level, trying to distract ourselves from who we are, from being really it’s ways of distracting ourselves from Being

MA  1:05:01

Right from just being And that’s the key to it all is just being and what does that mean to us? And you alluded to fact too, and that’s basically it, I think it’s just being very honest. It’s about feeling whatever we’re feeling. It’s about allowing it, trusting that if we allow it to be self liberated, that’s a big word in Tibetan Buddhism as well. Whatever we are holding on to, if we allow it to manifest exactly as it is, and embrace it exactly as it is, it will eventually self liberate it. So that feeling whatever we’re holding on to, each time they are able to hold on to it, whatever it is, it’s bugging us. Over time and sometimes it happens right away, and sometimes, over time, it becomes a little less, a little less, a little less, and eventually, we’ll just self liberate it. So because we’re holding on to it, and we’re looking directly into it, we’re holding it with our heart, not our head. That’s the big thing to hold it with our heart and see it as something that wants to be revealed, wants to show itself, wants to be seen, wants to be held in our love. That’s what everything wants, he wants to be held there and will be self liberated. That’s again, coming back to you saying the only emotion is love. it really is. And if we can teach ourselves to love ourselves, then you know, we love everybody, as well, because we’re all together the same. So every part of ourselves that we push away from ourselves, eventually, we have to love and in doing so will start to recognize how we do it and other people as well. And we can love them.

KW  1:07:12

Yeah, it’s so much easier to love and Brené Brown talks about that, completely switching lanes, the same concept of, we’re limited in our ability to love other people by our ability to love ourselves. And of course, because if we can’t fully accept and love ourselves, How in the hell can we ever accept anybody else? Or love anybody else? If we don’t start with ourselves? 

MA  1:07:35

We don’t see our own innocence. That’s the key too now, we really don’t know, I believe all human beings are good. And if we would see that we’re innocent, and all of these ways that we’ve complicated ourselves that we really didn’t know, if we knew, that all we had to do is not be that we wouldn’t do it. Right. But we didn’t know that. Our society teaches us you’re supposed to be something, And so, and we’re so good hearted, that that’s what we did. We went out and tried to be somebody. And so that’s where, we’re at where we’re at. 

KW  1:08:29

So I think this has been a great conversation. And I understand that you had an offer to give the audience. Could you talk a little bit more about that, Michael? 

MA  1:08:44

We have a group that meets every Sunday morning, Zoom group. And if you want information on that, I’m a practice leader for that group. And we have two other people who are practicing basically what we do is so dzogchen, and we talk about the very things that we’ve discussed today in depth. But you can look at our website, www.granitestatesangha that’s spelled S A N G H A There was a mistake, they wanted it to be.org and whoever set up the website, it’s not commercial. Anyways, www.granitestatesangha.com. And that would be the best way to check me out more. I’m not really someone on any social media or anything like that. I’m kind of a hermit in many ways. So. Anyways, that would be a place to check us out or you can always email me you have any questions at michaelallard333@gmail.com

KW  1:10:03

Great, make sure you put your email address in the show notes as well, as well as the website. So anybody who wants to sit with you guys and have these deep esoteric conversations on a Sunday, you’re welcome to do so.

MA  1:10:17

Yes, I appreciate it very much. Thank you very much. Good. I hope that I run into you again. Yes. In one of these ceremonies, that would be awesome. And I wish you well with your podcasts. You’re an excellent interviewer.

KW  1:10:30

Thank you. And yeah, I plan to go to the seventh day actually. I can’t remember if they hold it in January, February. 

MA  1:10:36

That’s the one I’m shooting for. I’m gonna go in September and then I’m gonna skip the December one and probably go to the one that Shannon says, that’s the one that puts you over the top. You’ve done this before.

KW  1:10:51

I’ve done it once. Well, the last one I did was technically the seventh day, and had a little bit of work. But yeah, I have done it seven days before. It’s intense. 

MA  1:11:01

yeah, I can imagine

KW  1:11:03

amazing. It’s absolutely amazing. As much as you get and they’re exactly right, the way they describe it is as much as you get out of the three days. The seven day is just like that on crack. It’s just exponentially more beneficial. Deeper. And it’s beautiful.

MA  1:11:25

I hope I run into you there.

KW  1:11:27

Yeah, me too. So thank you so much for joining me today, Michael. And thank you, audience, for joining us. I hope you’ll join me again next week. I really wish I could tell you what we were talking about but I don’t know. The job next week and we’ll learn about what we’re talking about. And until then please remember you can accept the diagnosis without accepting the prognosis

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